to not understand how you can fire missiles targeting civilians and it not be a war crime

[Itsaboatjack]

now I'm not especially knowledgable about the problems in the middle east but surely firing missiles into a city intentionally killing civilians is some kind of war crime?

Dear Crescentmoon,

The answer is unambiguous: jews were expelled from muslim countries in their hundreds of thousands. There was no choice. Pushed not pulled.

The current situation is tragic. Theocrats increasingly in charge on both sides. Moderates sidelined.

spotsdots I'm so sorry for your loss, that's horrific.

I think it's a mistaken idea that everybody affected by terrorism will want revenge or support military action -- as you say, it just kills more innocent people.

Elaine -- oh gosh, it is Lieberman isn't it? What a nutjob.

I just had to listen to a speech by an American neo-con talking about how much he wants to attack Iran, NOW.

What is with these people?? It's like all they care about is their own power, never mind they end up kings of a scorched earth.

spotsdots, I'm also sorry to hear about your family's tragedy.

The UK's chief rabbi said this was about Iran - although he didn't realise he was live on air when he said it (had just done Thought for the Day on Radio 4 and the presenter asked him why it was happening, without explaining he was still live on air - the other presenter chipped in to tell him and the rabbi quickly said 'all we can do is pray for peace'. But the comment about Iran was revealing.

No, I made a mistake. It's Eli yishai from shas who is minister of interior. Lieberman is minister of foreign affairs. But yishai is no better to be honest.

Just read on bbc about Israeli demonstrations against attacks in gaza, it's the only thing abiut this situations that makes me a little hopeful.

I know there are many many Israelis who support peace and hate Netanyahu. It must be so awful, like when we reelected George Bush in the US after his stupid war, you just feel despair.

Elaine, who would you like to see as prime minister? Is there anyone you think could make some progress in improving things and could they win?

Ideally Zehava galon but she has no chance. Shell yehimovich would be pretty good and better than either Bibi or Olmert, both in terms of security but also her social agenda. Another delightful trait of Bibi is that he is very right wing economically as well.

Hmm, thanks! I'll keep an eye on them

Lottie, have you read the accounts of Naeim Giladi? He and many other Sephardim argue that there was a concerted effort by Israel , including and not limited to false flag attacks, which was intended to get the Sephardim kicked out of their countries (Iraq, Iran, Egypt etc) so that the population of Israel would be boosted and they would have cheap labour...

Also wanted to add that I believe the increased intensity of late is a bid to get Western countries into full scale war with Iran. The more advanced type of missiles being used by Hamas have to have been supplied by someone outside. This will be blamed on Iran regardless if it was others who want to give Hamas (bunch of thick thugs that they are) enough rope to hang themselves with.

A good blog post here about the problems with the BBC reporting strategy.

The final image is unbearable.

www.andywightman.com/?p=1762

I have watched it; it is the kind of dreadful, desperate thing that happens under occupation when all ordinary forms of negotiation become impossible because of the disparity in power between two sides. Nothing could make what is happening justifiable. Or legal. Or proportionate.

A friend who's in touch with many civilians in Gaza posted this:

'The simple fact is the occupation forces started this latest round of aggression by killing first one baby, then two children playing football, in order to get Gazan resistance groups to retaliate since the Israelis had yet again broken the ceasefire. It is wrong to equate home-made tin-pot missles form an imprisoned resistance to depleted uranium tipped high tech weaponry from an occupation aggressor. You will see from the death tolls that, as usual, there are mainly children and women being killed by Israel, because they deliberately target civilian homes. I know, I am talking to those civilians who are in their homes and they are getting targetted even tho they have nothing at all to do with Hamas. Israel terms every single Palestinian as a terrorist, babies, and preferably pregnant women, are seen as preferable targets for Israel, as their t-shirts from 2009 reminded us - "one shot, two kills", and an attempt to undermine the next generation of people that might grow up less than happy with being occupied. Most of the weaponry Israel uses is illegal in civilian areas, and it is particularly illegal of an occupier to use weapons against a population it occupies. The problem for you, and most news audiences, is that you will only get the Israeli side, because they have an extremely well-oiled, very slick military propaganda machine.'

I saw a report from one of the people involved in undercover negotiations the other day saying that the Hamas commander that Israel assassinated the other day had been working towards a negotiated settlement and was in a position to sway policy within the group as a whole. Fat chance of that now he's been killed.

I am ashamed of Blair and Hague and their weak mutterings about de-escalation, and of Obama yet again failing to insist on the rule of law and on human rights. What a tragic, bitter, bloody waste of life and hope.

thanks bugger. tragic, bitter, shameful.
There is no way to spin this. Its just plain electoral posturing.
Totally predictable and despicable.

Madmum24 "There is no such thing as a civilian in what is known as Israel, from the age of 7 children are trained as soldiers, and all people from the jewish diaspora who apply to live there are aware of what they are going into."

Um, my Israeli DH is a little puzzled by this. He doesn't remember being trained from age 7. Perhaps it's the brainwashing.

I'm married to an Israeli. I lived there for 6 years, through the peak if the Intifada. I narrowly escaped being blown up by suicide bombers twice. So I think I have a little more insight than most of you who have just been fed emotive media bullshit.

BOTH sides are wrong. Both sides are killing civilians. Both sides are heavily influenced by religious nutjobs who think it their divine mission to kill off the other side. Serious international intervention is needed, and somehow, the religious influence has got to be stopped dead. Your average secular Israeli doesn't think the country is their god-given right. The average Israeli has no issue with the average Palestinian. The average Israeli doesn't want Jewish settlements going up in Palestinian land. In fact, the average secular hates the religious far right and the insanely strong influence they have over a supposedly secular government. The Israeli government DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE AVERAGE ISRAELI.

I would bet you that a shared state would be an absolutely viable option if all the religious nuts on both sides got chucked into the sea. Innocent people are dying because these wankers think their superstitions give them some divine right to kill over land. And my family and friends are having rockets lobbed at them because of arguments over a god they don't even believe in. It makes me so angry. The leaders of both sides need their heads banging together.

"supposedly secular government"
WHY DOES THE AVERAGE ISRAELI LET THEM HIJACK THEIR VOTE THEN?

The religious right have far too much influence. I'm still baffled as to how it happens. Money, mostly, I believe.

money for sure but who pours it abundantly and why?

And support from Christian fundamentalist millenarian hard liners in the States (& increasingly here, too).

I had a row by letter with a Church of Scotland minister with seriously evangelical influences who insisted that the conflict was a signal of the coming of the Last Days and the Second Coming, and the just punishment of the Muslims for not believing in Christ, and was therefore to be welcomed. I'm still astounded that people with such extreme views are allowed to be in charge of a parish.

Thanks for that Annie, I totally agree with you.

I don't know how the religious right have so much influence in America either. But there's limits to what the average person can do about it. You can vote, go on demos, try to do some activism, but what else can you do? Except condemn things you don't agree with.

laptop - that I don't know. I'm not that clued up about politics. I only know the opinions of my Israeli family and friends on the subject. The don't hate the Palestinians, they don't want war and for the most part, they don't support how the government is handling the situation.

who effectively votes

and a close shave

Jews and Muslims lived happily together in the region for hundreds of years. I really don't know how all this hate came about.

Considering Zionism originated as an avowedly secular movement, opposed by the Heredi (orthodox Jews to this day are excused service from the IDF), so I'm not sure where this idea that if everyone was a bit less religious, everything would be hunky-dory. Likewise, when pan-Arabism was at it's peak, the Palestinian resistance was also secular and there was no great out break of peace.

This is an ethnic conflict, not a religious one, though religion can be/is used as a tool by both sides.