To tell my dad its like hes stealing from me!

[MagicLlama]

So basically dad lives with me in my house. He contributes to the mortgage and household bills (just in case thats relevant)

I have a savings account. In it goes the hit and miss CSA money I receive from DS2s dad. The idea with this account is that because its not guaranteed every month, I am trying not to depend on it for day to day expenses, and instead amd trying to save it up it to fund repairs that need doing around the house which is falling down around my ears. I was planning to save it up until Feb, which would then give me enough money to fix the hole in the roof. My dad knows this.

The card is kept in the safe upstairs because again if Ive easy access to it Im more likely to spend it.

3 weeks ago, dad was paid £300 via a cheque and asked me to change it for him. I was at work so told him to just grab the card, bank the chq withdraw the cash from the cashpoint, and put the card back.

Last Friday I noticed on online banking that the account was £300 less than I thought it should be. At first I though that the cheque banked for dad had bounced, but upon checking £300 cash had been withdrawn. Turns out dad had withdrawn the money to pay his blokes because hed got cashflow problems. He also reckoned that because theyd been doing stuff up here he was OK to take the money out. I was pissed off because hed done it without asking, but conceeded that as they had been working up on the stable yard I would cover the wages. I told him not to take money out of the account without speaking to me first because it wasnt OK.

So tonight I have again logged on to internet banking and discovered that yet again he has taken £230 out of the account in the last 3 days. Ive just yelled at him over the phone hes out and asked him what hes doing. His answer is that hed got no money in his account so he borrowed it, and was going to put it back when he collected some money from a job hes finished. It his head this makes it OK.

Dad is quite emotionally manipultive (I think unintentionally) and ive always been his support, and i struggle to stand up / go against him. Unfortunately my counselling has helped me see this but not yet got me into a position when Im able to do something about it.

Hes carrying the card around in his wallet, and I am fuming, absolutely fuming, I feel like hes stealing from me. I would never dream of just going into his wallet and helping myself to his money not matter how desperate I was without mentioning it first. I dont know how to explain to him that whats hes doing is just shit and wrong and to get him to listen and understand.

Even more annoying is mum told me this would happen, so I cant ask her for advice because shell just be pissed off with my dads shitness with money.

So WIBU to tell use the phrase stealing when I try and speak to him rationally later? If so, can anyone think of a better phrase I can use?

[HecatePropylaea]

I wonder why it is that he has nobody left.

Is it because nobody else WANTS to be in his life?...

Whose fault do you think that might be?

[whatsforyou]

Even if you move out he won't stop. Your brother doesn't live with you but is still taking advantage.
Until you address this it won't stop. I know nowt about your brother's situation but am willing to bet his problems don't come from an `expensive' ex wife. He sounds like he is just careless with money because he knows that someone will bail him out!

[MagicLlama]

Because we had massive drama with DS2s dad when I went to the CSA so dad knew I was going to the CSA. I also had the conversation about how I was concerned that he wouldnt pay regularly, so I was going to use it as a bonus account and try and get some of the repairs that are needed done.

The first time he had the money he asked me about swapping it. I wasnt at home so I told him he could and to get the card out of the safe upstairs bank the cheque and get the money.

I said to him tonight, that didnt mean he had licence to just go and help himself to it and that if id done that to him and just gone and taken a couple of hundred quid out of his wallet what would he think? He said he shouldnt have done it but he was desperate and that hell give me the card back and not do it again.

But really given that I know whats hes like I should have moved it / changed the pin as soon as id lent it him the first time so its my own fault.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

Oh no you don't, don't you DARE blame yourself for what he has done!

He has really done a number on you,hasn't he?

[MagicLlama]

Bogey I remortgaged in the end because it was cheaper to remortgage for the whole amount than try and pay the two amounts, so now if you ask my brother he will tell you the debt is nothing to do with him as its my mortgage the jerk

Hectate To be fair he has my younger bro, but hes moved away so theres no one local. My older brother is a twat (see above) and so dad has little to do with him. He doesnt really have any friends or hobbies or go out anywhere. He used to, but as I said he had a breakdown years ago, and he never quite got over it. Hes always been shit with money though.

whats I think its a bit of both really.

[Bogeyface]

Oh fucking hell!

IT ISNT YOUR FAULT!!!!!

You really do believe that you are responsible for this dont you?

If you left your purse on a table in a cafe and someone nicked it, then yes it was careless of you but it wouldnt have been your fault if someone nicked it.

He chose to steal from you. He could have chosen not to.

You really do need the CBT, urgently, to stop thinking this way.

[Bogeyface]

Magic do you have a will?

If you dont, then make one. November is Will Aid month (look on the moneysaver website for details), so get yourself booked with a solicitor so that your father and brother cant take your money from your DC if anything happens to you. Make sure that you choose executors that know how you have been treated by them and wont allow your family to syphon off your money. Your mum sounds like a good bet for that!

[whatsforyou]

No it's not, he stole it. It's his fault. He is deliberately making you feel bad about confronting him and even worse using your children to make you feel guilty.
He is not sorry and will not stop. He will get worse and worse until you deal with it.
If you don't make him realise that you will no longer put up with this it will get to the point that he will do something so bad that you have no choice but to cut him out of your life.
He is treating you like shit and if needs to be told no more. If he wants a relationship with you and your children then he needs to treat you better. If he then chooses not then it should be clear to you where his priorities are.

[DontmindifIdo]

So he's said he's sorry and he's getting money on Monday. If the 'sorry' wasn't just him trying to stop you being grumpy, you'll have the money back on Monday.

Here's the thing OP - a couple of months ago, I was walking back from a toddler singing class with a friend and went past the butchers, she mentioned she wanted to pick up some chicken for dinner but then realised she did'nt have her purse on her, so I got my purse out and handed her a tenner, which she paid me back the following week. I was at another toddler group yesterday with the same friend, I left my bag at one point to take DS to the loo, do you think she now has a right to just take some cash out of my purse because she knows I normally carry cash and my financial situation is secure so I don't really need that money right now. No? would you call that stealing? Would you think she was in the wrong? Or having once lent someone money when they were in a tight spot would you think you then should hide your cash from them?

It's not your fault your father decided to steal from you and your children. It is your fault that you give him access to your house now you know he's a thief.

[confuugled]

I'm not surprised you don't have any money if your dad and bro are bleeding you dry like that!

I hope you didn't sell your field to finance your bro - sorry, haven't seen previous thread about it...

if you don't want to tell your dad that he is stealing off you and your dss then how about telling him that if he doesn't pay you back as he promised using the money he gets on Monday (instead using it to finance his own stuff) then you will consider it stealing at that point.

I would also start to keep a big sheet of paper up in the kitchen or somewhere very visible that shows 3 columns - 'What Dad Owes MagicL', 'Money Paid Back' and Balance Owing. Needs to be big and written in thick black felt pen so that you (and everyone else) can see it from across the room, not small and written in Biro so that you have to be up close to read it (if you see what I mean about the difference in seeing without making an effort and having to make an effort to read).

At the moment he's relying on you forgetting and not hassling him so that he can then help himself to borrow more. If it's up there for you both to see - and others if they are in your house - then it's going to be a lot more difficult for him to conveniently forget about it. Is it passive aggressive? Probably. But he is the one abusing you financially when you are not in a position to afford to give him this money, and if this is a tool that will help to stop that without you feeling bad about talking to your dad then go for it.

Do you think your dad had emptied his account or that he saw there was money in your account and thought he would help himself to your money and keep his own money for himself? What would your dad say if you said that as he doesn't seem to be able to budget properly then you are going to have to take over his accounts for him (not sure if this is something you would want to or have the time to do of course) - so give him a daily amount for lunch/travel/daily expenses and help him to pay the wages for materials but so that he can't go out and drink?/smoke?/indulge in other pleasures while he pays you back. If he complains then tough - he shouldn't have taken your money and spent it if he can't pay it back.

I would also tell him that if he doesn't pay you back then he will be the one explaining to your dc why Santa isn't able to bring them presents and why the house is cold because you can't afford heating etc.

[DontmindifIdo]

BTW - re your brother, the phrase "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" springs to mind.

Get that money back, don't take any sob stories, remember it is your DS's money, it's the money from their father for their food, clothes and keep, even if you use your own money for that, this money is supposed to be for them, it's his grandchildren's money he's stolen, it's not your money, it's your children's.

[Portofino]

You should tell him to fuck off and leave. Stop blaming yourself. He is an adult and should be responsible for himself.

[CagneyNLacey]

Have you told him you've cancelled the card? Dont tell him, let him try and use it again and see if he mentions it.

Eurgh, sorry op. You've been made to feel very bad and responsible for other people's awful behaviour. You sound really nice too.

[Softlysoftly]

Magic if you remortgaged for the full amount where's the extra after you paid the loans off? Or can I guess :(

Call women's aid, they may be able to help you reset your thinking, it's not just for husbands!

Oh and your mum could help you out of the trap she was in rather than just being angry.

[Chunkychicken]

Seems to me that you are the financial safety net for all the feckless men in your life. Who's your safety net? Where do you go when all these men have rung every last penny from you and you've nothing left to feed your kids with?

They are ADULTS. There are many, MANY options available to people that get into debt whether their own stupidity has resulted in the situation or the economic climate etc. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HELP THEM. You need to start putting yourself and your kids first. These people, that apparently love you, are treating you like a doormat, or rather their own personal cash machine. We would all like to spend money on things we want, enjoy, rather than need, but most of us don't. That's being an responsible adult. Seems to me that none of these men have grown up at all.

If you can't say no, then you are effectively telling them its okay for them to treat you like shit, so they'll continue to do it. You need to change your behaviour here, because they're not going to (why would they??!! It's a hell of a lot easier to be feckless & stupid with money & let you bail them out, rather than be sensible and responsible with money).

It isn't your fault they behave like this. It is up to you, however, to change the situation. You either need to change how you feel about being treated this way (I.e stop getting upset by it & accept it) or change how you deal with it (tell them to fuck off).

[sparklythings]

Right, let me get this straight. (Sorry been on the wine, lol)
You've given him your card, told him your pin number and told him to put the cheque in the account as you're at work, then draw it out.
He's then gone on to take out random amounts such as over £200 without your permission, and he's STILL walking around with your cash card and hasn't given it back?!
That's stealing, it isn't his money to take and he's done it without permission.
No use now, but for future reference, don't give your pin out to ANYBODY, not even family as if they do take anything out, you're likely to be seen as liable by the bank if they knew.
Secondly, get him to give you the card back. Also report the card as stolen, as you'll get a new card and pin number as your other one has been compromised.

[sparklythings]

Fecking hell, sorry just read the rest of the thread. What the hell is he still doing in your house?
He needs to be out, regardless of whether he's your dad or not. He's out and out stealing from you.
As for giving a new card to your mum when you get one? Does it not TELL you something when you have to hide your cashcard away from people in case hey help themselves to your cash?! Your mum has at least seen sense with him by the sounds of your posts, and it's about time you did too.
You're a grown adult!! You should be able to look after your own finances without somebody helping themselves whenever they want.
Report the card as stolen, get a new one and DO NOT TELL HIM, OR ANYBODY, THE NEW PIN.
That way he can't take any more.

[cees]

Why do you need someone else to hold your card for you, you said your 30 right? Your dad is emotionally blackmailing you and causing awful upset for your ds when he plays the 'I have to leave cause the evil cow said so' card. Why are you letting him hurt your child like that?

Locate your assertive side and get him out of your home and for heavens sake stop funding the rest of the family while your at it.

All they are doing is taking the piss and your letting them. Time for that to stop.

[DontmindifIdo]

oh and another thing I've noticed, you've had to go to the CSA to get money from your exP for your DS2 and you don't get this regularly, so I'm guessing your exP was/is also crap with money. Like your dad. And your brother.

Do you see your role as being the 'sensible one' who sorts out the financial affairs and supports various men in your life? You don't seem angry about this, but blaming yourself for failing to sort this situation properly, as if it's your job to stop a man in your life taking the piss with money.

I honestly would not have my dad back in my house again after this, not even tonight - tomorrow he can collect his stuff and i would only be prepared to talk to him again if he's returned every penny. Will you do that or do you think that actually, this is ok behaviour?

[Bogeyface]

This is an american website, but very informative.

[Bogeyface]

www.talk2someone.org.uk/victim/test#financial-abuse

This site has information about financial abuse and how to deal with it.

Would you have your father and brother in your live if they battered you? Raped you? This is abuse.

[Bogeyface]

www.talk2someone.org.uk/victim/test#financial-abuse

Sorry, clickable link

[AThingInYourLife]

"it's not your money, it's your children's."

Quite right.

You have no business "lending" your children's money to your thief of a father.

[MagicLlama]

See its all so simple in black and white isnt it and I love MN because youre so blunt and straight to the point.

To answer a few things before I go and catch up on Strictly .....

Bogey, wheres and whats lol could only type that on MN but it is my fault. I know what hes like. I know I cant deal with him. I should take steps to do something about it and yet I seem incapable. I cant even work out what Im worried about happening if I do.

I highly doubt any money will appear on Monday, but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. I can live in hope I hope he does, I really do.

I dont think for one moment he had money and just spent mine, Im quite sure he wouldnt do that. He just doesnt budget terribly, and is constantly not paying a to pay b, its the way he always has been. Its not even like hes splashing it somewhere or has any terrible vices or goes out and fritters it all away, hes just always seems to be waiting for money to come in.

To be honest I tend to get involved with people who take advantage of me, and then Im too pathetic to tell them to fuck off. Its a bit of a vicious circle, because everytime I do I feel more idiotic and worthless and then when someone "needs" me I jump up to help. Im not sure if counselling has been good as its got me to see the behaviour yet not got me to change the cycle or if its bad as I was better off in unhappy ignorance

[Portofino]

What can we do to help you then Magic? It is a sad fact that some of us have parents who put their own selfish shit before their children. I too have a dad like that. At the end of the day, ALL we can do is say - No that is not acceptable - bugger off and do what you want. No more emotional and financial abuse.