To tell my dad its like hes stealing from me!

[MagicLlama]

So basically dad lives with me in my house. He contributes to the mortgage and household bills (just in case thats relevant)

I have a savings account. In it goes the hit and miss CSA money I receive from DS2s dad. The idea with this account is that because its not guaranteed every month, I am trying not to depend on it for day to day expenses, and instead amd trying to save it up it to fund repairs that need doing around the house which is falling down around my ears. I was planning to save it up until Feb, which would then give me enough money to fix the hole in the roof. My dad knows this.

The card is kept in the safe upstairs because again if Ive easy access to it Im more likely to spend it.

3 weeks ago, dad was paid £300 via a cheque and asked me to change it for him. I was at work so told him to just grab the card, bank the chq withdraw the cash from the cashpoint, and put the card back.

Last Friday I noticed on online banking that the account was £300 less than I thought it should be. At first I though that the cheque banked for dad had bounced, but upon checking £300 cash had been withdrawn. Turns out dad had withdrawn the money to pay his blokes because hed got cashflow problems. He also reckoned that because theyd been doing stuff up here he was OK to take the money out. I was pissed off because hed done it without asking, but conceeded that as they had been working up on the stable yard I would cover the wages. I told him not to take money out of the account without speaking to me first because it wasnt OK.

So tonight I have again logged on to internet banking and discovered that yet again he has taken £230 out of the account in the last 3 days. Ive just yelled at him over the phone hes out and asked him what hes doing. His answer is that hed got no money in his account so he borrowed it, and was going to put it back when he collected some money from a job hes finished. It his head this makes it OK.

Dad is quite emotionally manipultive (I think unintentionally) and ive always been his support, and i struggle to stand up / go against him. Unfortunately my counselling has helped me see this but not yet got me into a position when Im able to do something about it.

Hes carrying the card around in his wallet, and I am fuming, absolutely fuming, I feel like hes stealing from me. I would never dream of just going into his wallet and helping myself to his money not matter how desperate I was without mentioning it first. I dont know how to explain to him that whats hes doing is just shit and wrong and to get him to listen and understand.

Even more annoying is mum told me this would happen, so I cant ask her for advice because shell just be pissed off with my dads shitness with money.

So WIBU to tell use the phrase stealing when I try and speak to him rationally later? If so, can anyone think of a better phrase I can use?

[DontmindifIdo]

Well, you'll be asking him for the money on Monday won't you? And if he says no, will you be telling him to find somewhere else to live? Tell him to get out of your home and not come back until he's paid back every penny he owes your children (and then I'd only let him visit your house, not live in it, he's a grown up, let him find some other mug to sponge off).

You will only change the fact that people see you as a mug when you stop acting like one. Hold on to the anger on this one, get this man out of your life, he's your father, he should be pathetically grateful for what you've done for him, not making you feel bad that he took your money.

[lottiegarbanzo]

You need to keep your finances separate and private. Simple really. Don't talk to him about your finances. Focus on the fact that you are saving to do the best thing for your son.

His finances are his business. Let him mange them himself. If he can't, refer him to CAB or other advisor.

If he is expecting you to pay for his staff or whatever, that needs to be agreed before they start the job. This idea that he can change the goalposts after he's commissioned the work made a commitment to them is absurd. Either you have agreed to paying for some work, or you haven't. Start writing things down and running more formal processes if you find he twists your words or acts on assumptions.

[Catkinsthecatinthehat]

I remember your earlier threads. You'd bailed your brother's company out for a couple of hundred grand but it didn't work, and his massive debts were now in your name. Your family then wanted you to run his business and give him all the profits and a huge annual salary, while you got nothing, because his wife wanted to keep up appearances. He was going to kill himself if you didn't do as he said. Because of all of this your child was going without.

Your mother had a dodgy mate who was going to buy your land for a pittance in a deal she'd sewn up behind your back. Even though it would further reduce your ability to provide for your child.

You also had an affluent ex who had convinced you not to take full maintenance as it would ruin his life. And you felt guilty and agreed to this even though your child lost out.

And now your father is stealing from you and you're faffing about whether to accept this state of affairs or not. Even though it's raining on your kid's head through the hole in the roof as a result.

You come across as a caring, kind and generous person who worries about her family. But every single close family member repeatedly fucks you over and guilt trips you for cash and you let them, to the detriment of your son. You are both an abused child and the family cash cow, and you can't seem to break the cycle of guilt and financial abuse, even if your child suffers. You really need to explore why you allow this to continue and why so many people in your life are happy to impoverish you, with your blessing.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Jesus, reading Catkin's post you must be earning £100ks a year to keep this all going. Just think what you could do with the money!

[Ra88]

Cancel the card ! And tell him you will report him if he doesn't repay you ASAP ! Family or not that is theft

[cbeebiesatemybrain]

I remember your previous thread and I totally agree with everything Catkins said. This is just the tip of a massive iceberg.

[McChristmasPants2012]

Bloody hell, the money you have written off could have fixed the roof.

Your father sounds toxic and a financially abuse arsehole.
Tbh he would be out of my home before he has an impact on ds.

Sorry to be blunt, but your brother and father are cut from the same cloth do you really want your son picking up on this and seeing this as normal.

[lottiegarbanzo]

And that's just the money you've written off in the last three months.

You asked for a better phrase, how about 'stealing food from the mouth of babes'. That's exactly what he's doing with your CSA money.

He knows his own record, so good intentions and ability to pay do not match. Does he expect some windfall, or something to be different in future from the way things have always been to date? Give him a bill, with payment deadlines and interest and make clear that, while you're willing to support him emotionally as a daughter, your primary responsibility in all ways is to your son.

If he's running a business he needs business accounts. Does he employ all these blokes to make himself feel useful and in control of something, or is he actually running a profitable business? I think we can guess the answer. Either his business makes a profit or he needs to wind it up. If he commissions work he cannot pay for, he is a fool and will face his creditors, in court if needs be.

Next time he wants to cash a cheque he takes it to his bank. Do not give him access to any of your money. Change he code on your safe. If he whines, confront him with he evidence. Do keep it displayed prominently until he repays you in full - like a child's reward chart.

[MagicLlama]

Sorry fell asleep!

Portro To be honest just talking about it on here helps. I need to sort my shit out as the phrase goes and get into a position to move him out. Its just that I see him with the DSs and I think how much crap they have gone through and I wonder if dads shit is worth it to give them that IYSWIM? Maybe thats my real AIBU?

Fucking hell catkins when you write it sounds really bad! And thats not even all the crap, its just the big ones. I normally wouldnt even post what happened last night because im just so aware that its crap, but almost dont want to know that it is because I have to deal with it. I need to sort this out.

I have been a daddys girls and dads shadow since before I could walk. He had a breakdown when I was 8 and hes never been the same since then, and I knew it, and I pretty much started being there for him then as my mother wasnt. She then finally moved out for the final time when I was 16 and dad had another breakdown and ive been taking the place of the person he relies on ever since. I do it because Im aware he has noone else, and hes scared of being alone. Hes had some rough breaks and I feel like I have to help him. My counseller said to me last week, so youll be writing your life off until you are 50 then looking after your dad will and, and I just shrugged. Fucking shrugged. I think I said on my other thread I always feel like my opinions dont matter, and its not just with my family, its with my friends as well.

Thats what I need to change and thats what I need to work out how to do.

Dad has loads of good points and they are getting lost in all this resentment I feel at him, for at this financial stuff, and I dont want to end up cutting him off because he does something so terrible that I cant take it anymore.

[Animation]

Magic - have you got the card back?

[rogersmellyonthetelly]

This is a bad situation, and will only get worse if you allow it to continue.
It's not your fault that your dad is daft with money, but if you want to continue to have a relationship with him which isn't bitter and resentful on your part then you need to take action.
You have cancelled the card - this is good.
Write down everything he has borrowed over the last month, and how much he has paid back, and how much is still outstanding.
Then ask him exactly what he has spent the money on, which will highlight any problems with his business, and also any problems with his other spending.
Then work out exactly how much he needs for materials etc for jobs this month, and how much money he is expecting, and therefore how much he can afford to pay back. Leave him an allowance for daily food etc, and a reasonable amount of enjoyment. If he chooses to fritter it away on other stuff, that's his problem, and he can make sandwiches or whatever instead. Ask to see invoices and receipts for materials etc so you know that he has enough to cover them and that he is actually paying the invoices with the money he has. I wouldn't be surprised if there is something else going on behind all this - those amounts of money are significant, regular and any small business with that sort of cash flow problem is in big trouble.
I have a little experience with this as my own dad was running a business which had constant cash flow problems, he took out loan after loan, defaulted, had overdrafts etc and was hiding the letters from my mother, who would find them and be worried sick. She was working and running the whole house and 2 cars on £800 a month, and dad was drawing out random money for food, magazines etc from the joint account, rather than taking sandwiches etc. in the end it took myself and 2 sisters to sit him down in a room, with locked doors so he couldn't storm out, and we basically told him the business had to close down. It took a couple of months of insisting from us, as he kept on saying this money is owed and that money is coming this week, and if I buy this amazing new machine I can get this extra work etc etc. thankfully his credit score was so bad no one would lend him any extra money, the business closed down, and he was left with around £50k of debt to pay off, he has reached agreements with lenders and is paying an agreed amount each month, which my mother pays. He has no cash card, no access to money other than what he asks for and is within reason given. Yes, he is treated like a child with respect to money, and no there is no dignity in a grown man having to ask for money rather than being able to get it for himself, but since he has shown himself to be about as capable as a 10yo with regards to spending appropriately, then this is the way it has to be in order to preserve everyone's sanity and solvency!

[ImperialBlether]

OP, you need to live separately from your dad. You really do. He can still see your children frequently. He really isn't the kind of example of a man you want to give your children anyway, is he?

I'm angry at your mum, allowing him to depend on you like that, so that she could carry on living her life as she wanted to.

I think it's time you got angry at the way all of your family have treated you.

[ModernToss]

I remember your thread about your brother, your mother and the field, MagicLlama - it was jaw-dropping. Your brother in particular is a piece of work.

I'm so sorry your family takes advantage of you this way.

I understand that you love your dad and he's had a hard time, but who supports you? You are carrying the weight of your entire family, when really you should only be supporting your kids, and should in turn be getting support from your parents.

I agree with the previous post - GET ANGRY!

[lottiegarbanzo]

I wonder, if you told your Dad the account was to save for your son's Christmas presents, would he still 'borrow' from it? Is there any level to which he would not stoop? (Not that repairing a roof is any less important than presents, it's more so, in a very basic 'physical security and roof over your head' way but it sounds more grown-up and less emotive).

I just don't see how, if you set out his 'borrowings' over the last three months and what he's paid back, he can claim not to understand the problem.

[DontmindifIdo]

Hes had some rough breaks and I feel like I have to help him

OP - you have had some really rough breaks, you've been stolen from and ripped off by the people you should trust the most. Who is helping you? Short answer, noone, so why do you feel it's ok for people to expect you to stand on your own two feet, but not your father?

You need to get him out of your house. You need to keep these posionous people away from your DSs, you do not want them to teach your DSs this is an acceptable way to treat people. If your DSs turn out like your dad, you will have failed.

Here's a harsh thing you need to realise, you are prioritising being a "good daughter" over being a "good mum" - you are letting your DCs security be less important than your dads. This isn't about you any more, he's stolen from your children and you have showed them that that's ok.

You don't have to look after your dad, you do have to look after your DSs. So put them first. Get him out and tell him he either pays you back on Monday the money he stole or you will report him to the police. And mean it. I bet with the threat of hte police hanging over him, he'll get his shit together.

In my experience, people who can't budget fall into two categories, people who have so much money it doesn't matter, and people who have someone else to bail them out. Your dad is in the second category, you will have have bailed him out over and over so he doesn't need to be good with money, he can spend all his and then all yours and then all your DSs. And when then well dries up, he'll find someother mug. Make him go find his next mug now.

[Teabagtights]

Your father and brother know you are a pushover so take the piss. Whilst ou have anything they will always be pounces.

You never listened before n here this time you won't listen again.

You are a fool to yourself. Wen you have kids they come first before anything you are allowing your family to rob you blind. They aren't just robbing you they are thriving from your kids. If you won't tend up for yourself do the right thing for your kids.

[nkf]

People who are "bad at budgetting" are just opting out of adult life. After you've stopped the card, make it clear how much he owes you and ask for a repayment plan. Say you need to budget for yourself and your child. You need to fix the roof. It's your money and you need it back for your needs. He may not give the money back and that will sting but as, of today, you are not lending him another penny. If you need help with the mortgage, you can always get a lodger. Good luck.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Sorry to keep coming back but this thread has stuck in my mind as it's just so very extraordinary and so wrong.

Two things occur to me:

1. According to your post at 21.30 last night, he probably isn't paying you rent and contributing to bills, or hasn't in the last three months anyway. Perhaps £400 is only part of his monthly contribution, in which case a huge amount is owing. If £400 was the total monthly contribtion he would have paid you only £150 of £1,200 owed in the last three months.
   
   
2. An even bigger issue is that, from what I can gather (the full picture may be different) he would appear to be running an unprofitable, failing business. You appear to be subsidising that business in order to give him a hobby, to maintain his self esteem.
   
   A failing business run by someone with no money sense is bound to fail, sooner or later. That is outside your control, unless you take over the running of the whole thing and even then, it could fail. The sooner you allow it to fail, the more subsidy you save and the better you can provide for your sons.
   
   Stop throwing good money after bad. Your Dad needs to take responsibility for his own finances and face up to the consequences of his actions.
   
   If you want to keep him busy, happy and solvent, help him look for a suitable salaried job.

[PfftTheMagicDraco]

You need to think about the fact that your child is at a disadvantage because of the way you are allowing your family to treat you.

Step up and tell your father to get lost.

[OhTheConfusion]

Gosh I remember the brother/field thread:-( did you sell it in the end? Can you afford to live in the house on you own? If so I would ask your dad to leave. He is a grown man and taking advantage of your kind nature.

[PopMusicShoobyDoobyDoA]

I hate to say this OP, you need to break out of the cycle of abuse from your family because ten /twenty years down the line, it could be your DS's causing you grief. Sorry

[CocoPopsAddict]

OP - you keep referring to the past, e.g. being a daddy's girl, etc. STOP.

Whatever has happened before sounds awful, but it is time to draw a line under it.

Make the decision and stick to it. That's all there is to it.

[sashh]

It is stealing. Get a new card and a new pin.

If dad is going to ontinue to live with you then don't keep the card in a safe, freeze it in a big block of ice.

Why did you need to cash his cheque? Doesn't he have a bank account?

[Jojoba1986]

OP, can you write your dad a letter? Just a factual 'this is what you've taken from us' & explaining that you are not a bank & need to look after your children which you cannot do if you are having to support him. Tell him you expect to have the money he promised you by Tuesday at the latest & he is to leave it for you on Tuesday when he leaves your house. Tell your DC that he will no longer be living with you because grown ups need to have their own homes but they will see him lots. Tell them before he has a chance to manipulate them. If he tries to discuss/argue about it then simply repeat, "I said everything I have to say in the letter. I will not change my mind." Stand by this. Walk out of the room. Do not enter into a discussion with him. If he claims he has nowhere else to go, repeat the above, maybe accompanied by a comment about where the nearest b&b is. If he's still not left by Tuesday night, wait until he leaves the house next, pack a suitcase for him & leave it outside with a note asking him to contact you within a month to arrange to collect the rest of his things. Make it clear to him that he his welcome to spend time with the children as long as he follows certain rules: he is not to come into your house, he can take them for walks/to the park; he is not to discuss your disagreement with them & if asked he is to tell them he left because it was time for him to find his own home. Let him know that you will limit his contact with them if he breaks your rules.

I know this sounds harsh but it is going to take an aggressive, hard-line response from you if he is to stop taking your money. He will react badly. He will act as if you've mortally wounded him. But he will find somewhere else to live, someone else to mooch off & he will get over it eventually & behave himself. There's a slim chance that he won't but you'll be able to hold your head high in the knowledge that you have done what is best for everyone. This is not a healthy relationship for you & him or him & your children.

As far as CBT goes, it enables you to help yourself. You are already able to help yourself, the CBT just guides you through the process. It's difficult to begin with but what the CBT will encourage you to do is: 1. Identify how you think you should behave, 2. Do it. Whether you're receiving your support from a trained professional or strangers on the net, it is up to you to take the steps necessary to change your life. You've already identified the problem & that you want to change it. You need to decide how you want to proceed & then you need to take a deep breath & take the plunge. If at any time you feel overwhelmed, take a step back & come on here for support. Tell your dad you need to think about it if necessary, this will give him false hope but you will have time to rebuild your confidence. If in doubt repeat to yourself, "I am doing what is best. I can do this." as many times as it takes for you to believe it!