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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think you don't have to believe in God to be a vicar / priest

79 replies

moogstera1 · 09/11/2012 18:37

having a conversation with dh about whether priests / vicars other "professional" religious people actually all believe in God or whether some see it as a career ( Have no religious belief myself so find it hard to fathom ).
Anyway, got onto my asking whether if you lost your faith when you were a priest, but were otherwise very proficient at the giving services, being nice to people etc. you would still be allowed to keep your job, or would the church sack you.
Also, would they legally be allowed to as it seems to cry out to me that it would be religious discrimination directly leading to being sacked.
Dh now refusing to engage in the convo as he says it's too mad to contemplate that any vicars / priests don't believe in God, let alone that they wouldn't be told to give up their job if they were to "come clean" that they didn't believe in it all anymore.

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 10/11/2012 15:02

'The ex catholic priests I know all left to get married, and still have the belief, and to be honest all three of them would still be clergy if they could get married. '

My uncle, my dad's sister's husband, is one. He was born in India, ordained at the Vatican and an Oxford-educated physicist (now retired).

He met my aunt her first year at university where she was training to become a teacher, and they married 10 years later.

He says he left the priesthood, not the Church. She worked as an English and Religious Studies teacher for years and they are still very devout.

He believes strongly in returning to Catholic clergy being allowed to marry (this was only changed at the Synod of Whitby nearly 1000 years after Christianity was founded, before this, priests and sisters were allowed to married, only bishops and mystics did not).

In an odd coincidence, both my father's brothers married former nuns. Each of these women, however, had entered convent as teens not because they had a calling, but because they were from large Mexican families where it was common to give a child to God (not able to feed them all, probably) and had left religious life before meeting their respective spouses (they were both nurses, one is deceased but the other is still working as a nurse).

hackmum · 10/11/2012 15:57

A couple of hundred years ago, it was usual among the gentry for the eldest son to inherit the fortune, and the younger son or sons to have to find something else to do, which was very often to enter the priesthood. (See Jane Austen for obvious examples.) I imagine an awful lot of those men would not have felt a calling and were therefore desperately unsuited to the role, even if they weren't actually atheists. Today I imagine it would be unusual for an atheist to enter the priesthood because there are so many other jobs you could do that would pay better.

sarahtigh · 10/11/2012 16:15

I am pretty sure a minister can be sacked for openly saying he/she is an atheist, they can also be sacked for over things that are considered sin but not criminal like adultery and in some places bankruptcy

A lot of churches have articles of faith which all office bearers ( elders deacons lay readers etc) are required to agree to; for example in a baptist church it would include believers baptism rather than infant baptism and a change of mind on these core beliefs can result in being sacked/ removed from office

you can make religious belief an employment criteria if essential, a youth worker that also preached/taught christian doctrine can have a requirement to be a practicing christian; a church secretary/cleaner could not have that specified in job description.

AgentZigzag · 10/11/2012 16:35

Thinking about your uncle leaving because he wanted to get married expat, makes me wonder if someone left, say, being a catholic priest, could they go over to the church of england to become a vicar?

The two are compatible in that they share lots of traditions, with the c of e emerging out of catholicism, but if you were leaving because of the way marriage is dealt with, would it be possible to bypass the central tenants of the two, like one believing the bread and wine to be the actual body of Christ and the other that it's only a representation?

That would have to be an equanimical matter Grin. a private thing the person had to work out for themselves, but would they have to 'demonstrate' they had shifted the way they thought about religion in order to be accepted by another church?

I'm only thinking out loud Grin I know you can't possibly know this unless your uncle talked about it to you, hope you don't mind me asking.

DiddyMary · 11/11/2012 01:04

"if someone left, say, being a catholic priest, could they go over to the church of england to become a vicar?"

I can give a real world example. RC priest left to get married and the couple moved away from his parish and started worshiping in a CofE church. After some time - I think years rather than months - the vicar there suggested he look at being accepted into ordained ministry in the CofE. (The CofE recognised his RC ordination, so saw him as already being a priest, the only question was whether or not he'd be allowed to exercise that ministry in the CofE.)

There were some initial discussions with the bishop, and I think the Diocesan Director of Ordinands (the person who deals with most of the details for people being considered for ordination). He did some work there, then was transfered to the church I worshipped at to work on a limited license under our vicar's supervision while the process of discernment continued. I think he had to go to a 48 hour national selection conference, same as a normal candidate for ordination, which passed him. He then stayed with us for a while, doing more training (I think it was a tailored version of the standard post ordination traning programme) and later got a parish of his own.

I think any cases would be considered on the individual circumstances, but note that in this case he had some time simply as a worshipper in an anglican church before the matter was even raised. i suspect trying to transfer straight from RC ministry to CofE ministry would be much harder.

DiddyMary · 11/11/2012 01:06

Oh, and on "like one believing the bread and wine to be the actual body of Christ and the other that it's only a representation?" there are a good many Church of England clergy and laity who take the RC line on that. (Not that I'm one of them.)

AgentZigzag · 11/11/2012 03:03

Diddy - it's like it's acceptable for the person to only have a core belief, and the accoutrements of the different churches are only peripheral problems - which is how it should be IMO.

I've had a look at (what I thought was called transcendentalism (which turned out to be some kind of philosophy, so nothing to do with religion Grin)) transubstantiation on google, and I thought along side not seeing the pope as the head of the church and being able to read the bible in your own language yourself, was something fundamental to the c of e.

I might just be getting where the c of e fits into anglicanism and protestantism messed up in my head Grin most of it is indirectly reading about it with the tudors, and things have probably moved on since then.

I like order, and it's just all so messy Grin

FairPhyllis · 11/11/2012 08:10

Agent There are plenty of people in the CofE who believe in transubstantiation or consubstantiation. And plenty of people who believe that communion is representational.

The whole point of the CofE as Elizabeth I established it is that it is a political and religious compromise. It never fully adopted continental Protestantism. It is Reformed, but is not a Protestant church. The 39 Articles do reject transubstantiation but they are not in themselves a source of authority on it, as most Anglicans would take Scripture over the articles and some interpret Scripture as supporting transubstantiation. And there has always been a continuity of belief in doctrines like transubstantiation and consubstantiation since Elizabethan times - church practice is considered another source of authority by Anglicans.

Messy is good. Order is where fundamentalism lives.

madmouse · 11/11/2012 08:14

My dh is a priest and vicar. And no he could not do that job without a living faith. It would not be sustainable to work 60h plus a week for something you did not believe in. And how would you preach the gospels and pray for your flock. And he could never perform the rites involved in preparing and distributing Holy Communion without personal faith in Jesus and what Jesus has done for us. Tbh I think your question is based on a misunderstanding of the life/work of a priest. Sorry.

ithaka · 11/11/2012 08:18

I am not sure our last village minister believed in god. I don't think it is especially necessary in the Church of Scotland, to be honest, it seems to be much more of a community support type role than a proselytising role.

I'm not religious, but went to the school services and if god was mentioned was all very minimal and lower case god, IYSWIM. It was much more about supporting each other and being part of the community and helping others.

The few chats I had with him, he just tended to joke about what a jammy job he had, he never seemed devout. He was a nice guy and I was sorry when he moved on.

Looking at his role, I would say belief in god could definitely be optional.

madmouse · 11/11/2012 08:34

'devout' and 'proselytising' are not words I would use to describe dh. He carries his faith in Jesus with him wherever he goes, as do I, but he doesn't ram it down other people's throat and he's not on his knees 24/7. But Jesus is everywhere in all he does.

You may well be seeing the outside rather than the inside of the job and the person.

Jammy job? Let me think, there's the working hours, the pay, the always being on call, the certain parishioners that will drive you m.a.d., the not enough rest and never a free weekend to go away with friends, the tension between moving the church forward into the 21st century and those who want the choir and sung Nunc dimittis at the family service, the forever crumbling church, the endless parish and diocesan politics.

There's also the spacious house (but no money to pay the heating bills! And its not your own and changes with every job), the working from home and being able to see your child when he comes home from school most days, and the fulfilment of doing what you are called to do. So there are compensations. But jammy? No.

I know there are priests who only loosely believe in Jesus, we call them liberals, but some sort of belief in God is pretty necessary.

Jusfloatingby · 11/11/2012 16:04

Being a priest or vicar is not just a 'job' or a career choice. Its a vocation arising out of a deep desire to spread a faith that you completely and totally believe in.
I can understand if a priest or vicar started to have doubts that it might take him some time to come to a decision to leave the church and resume a lay life. But someone who just continued on because 'hey, I'm good at this. Why bother with the hassle of changing 'jobs'..... Sorry, but that would be wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

Mrsjay · 11/11/2012 16:07

I think being a vicar priest or minister is a vocation and not a job they need to believe in what they are doing if not what is the point they would be lying to their parishioners wouldnt they so hypocritical , somebody I know was training to be a minister for the church of scotland she decided half way through she no longer believed and lost her faithshe is now a social worker working with the elderly , still doesnt believe in god

Latara · 11/11/2012 16:47

I believe in God but i don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or in the Resurrection, or in the Holy Trinity.

My Mum's Mum is from a Jewish family so i could convert to Judaism.
I have Muslim friends, & they believe Jesus existed & was a prophet, so i could convert to Islam.

But at present i'm happy to say i believe in God, but am NOT a Christian.

No priest / vicar / pastor should be in the job if they don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, IMO.

It's like being a frontline soldier who doesn't believe in shooting the enemy. Sort of.

Colyngbourne · 11/11/2012 18:58

I agree with Madmouse above.

But also the former Bishop of Durham, David Jenkins, did not say that he didn't believe in the resurrection - it gets repeated all over the media but is a complete misrepresentation of his position.

Also, the job situation is not currently "hold onto your freehold or have a short-term contract" - it is hold onto your freehold (if you are lucky enough to have it) or have "common tenure" which is explained here

nightlurker · 12/11/2012 03:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

horseygeorgie · 12/11/2012 14:59

yep, 22k seems loads doesn't it! Then think - my Dad has 11 churches to look after. Morning prayer is at 6.30 every day, he has meetings that go on till 10/11 at night. He is supposed to get wednesdays off and that rarely happens. he workes every hour God sends (sorry, no pun intended) and works roughly an 80 hour week. he has had 2 mini strokes due to the stress and has to deal with people literally 24/7 if needed (included in the middle of the night). His mileage hasn't been increased in about 15 years and, yes you get a house and a big garden, but what you don't get is the cleaner and team of gardeners needed to make the place look good as we all work full time.
His hourly wage works out at 5.70p/hr before deductions.

I think he's mad personally, but he loves it and is good at it.

horseygeorgie · 12/11/2012 15:01

madmouse says what i meant to say so much better! Grin

FantasticDay · 12/11/2012 15:13

Latara (and others) - I think you can be a Christian without believing in that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God. (In fact, didn't Jesus at one point ask his disciples not to call him 'good teachers' as 'only God is good'?) There are plenty of Unitarian Christians who believe in God and think that Jesus has a special message from God, but don't believe in the Trinity (i.e. that he was God). Quakers are also a non-credal religion, so there is no obligation for them to believe in the Trinity either.

DeWe · 12/11/2012 15:14

About 10-15 years ago there was a vicar sacked for saying in front of the church that he didn't believe in God. He tried sueing for unfair dismissal/discrimination, and failed. Can't remember where. Somewhere in the midlands I think.

On the basis that a lot of Anglican churches say the creed every week, which starts "I believe in God the Father...", if they didn't believe they are lying on the job as it were.
Would it be considered grounds for dismissal for a sales person to regularly lie to the clients as it were?

MamaMary · 12/11/2012 15:24

I know/ have known of some vicars who do not believe in God. They are a dying breed though - a lot less common now. In every case I can think of , they were rubbish at their job and the congregation either dwindled to virtually nothing or actually died.

You cannot do the job properly if you do not believe in God. It's hypocrisy for a start and I don't see how you could live with that.

Mrskbpw · 12/11/2012 15:24

I think - but I may be remembering this wrong - the mother of one of the 7/7 victims was a vicar. She lost her faith after her daughter died and resigned.

Oops no - I have googled and was remembering wrong. She resigned because she couldn't forgive the bombers (fair enough, in my opinion). So I'm not sure what the point of my post is. Sorry.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/8136382.stm

Trills · 12/11/2012 15:26

I think this is one of those cases where discrimination is applicable.

Yes, like if you are hiring models or actors you are allowed to use sex or race as one of your criteria for who you choose.

madmouse · 12/11/2012 16:48

Nightlurker

'but I don't like when a person's financial future is dependent on a certain flavor of religion.'

Huh??

For us there is only one 'flavour of religion' - a living faith in Jesus the Son of God and Redeemer of the world. Dh was Christian first, then felt called to priesthood and spent several years exploring it before having that calling confirmed by a committee of wise men and women and then started his training (3 years theory 3 years practice).

It's not a job you just choose.

madmouse · 12/11/2012 17:03

He was a senior IT expert before he was called by the way, earned 50k a year. So in terms of finances it's not exactly a career move.