to think you don't have to believe in God to be a vicar / priest

[moogstera1]

having a conversation with dh about whether priests / vicars other "professional" religious people actually all believe in God or whether some see it as a career ( Have no religious belief myself so find it hard to fathom ).
Anyway, got onto my asking whether if you lost your faith when you were a priest, but were otherwise very proficient at the giving services, being nice to people etc. you would still be allowed to keep your job, or would the church sack you.
Also, would they legally be allowed to as it seems to cry out to me that it would be religious discrimination directly leading to being sacked.
Dh now refusing to engage in the convo as he says it's too mad to contemplate that any vicars / priests don't believe in God, let alone that they wouldn't be told to give up their job if they were to "come clean" that they didn't believe in it all anymore.

expat, I do think some people who lose their faith do "find God" again in old age, when they have time to reflect.

Obviously it's a very personal thing.

I'm sure some do, Lynette.

Vicars and priests are people, too.

I think you would need to believe in god, only because your paritioners would expect it, and it would be wrong to lie.

I do consider my self a good Christian even though I am an aetheist.

'I do consider my self a good Christian even though I am an aetheist.'

How does that work? Please enlighten? I'm genuinely curious.

There are probably many a vicar or priests who might believe, as someone else stated, that Jesus was a really good person but not buy all the Resurrection and stuff.

If I were to convert to Judaism, or Islam, you reckon I could cry out about "religious discrimination" if I were sacked from my job as a Church of England vicar?

I think it is a pretty moot point. Who on earth would want to be a priest, if they did not have faith? It is a calling. Not a career.

"I do consider my self a good Christian even though I am an aetheist."

Nuttyprofessor, do you also consider yourself a good Muslim, even though you are an atheist?

Or a buddhist?
Hindoo?

If you think about your statement in light of any other religion than Christianity, I guess you will realize how extremely daft it sounds.

I think what you mean to say is that "I consider I have a good ethical and moral grounding/standpoint in my life, I am an atheist"

Almost all vicars I know feel called by God to the profession, so yes I think YABU.

I only know one vicar that's had doubts about God - he left the faith and went up north to be private tutor to a cotton merchant [name that book].

Yet to meet a CofE vicar or priest who does not believe in God.

Even though we have a nice house and £20,000 per year, the pension will be tiny and we will have no house to retire to as we are not paying off a mortgage on a property

For the hours we work and the stress that comes with the job, and the years of training I know DH would not be a vicar if he didn't believe or wasn't called. But as he does believe and feels called, it's the best job in the world and I'm very thankful.

"my mum says you don't have to believe in God to be a Christian."
oh well, if your mum says so, you must be right.

belief in God is an essential if you're claiming Christianity. Father, Son and Spirit.

Well it certainly helps if you believe in god

Picking up on a couple of comments above:

There are certain roles where specifying a particular religion is legal - genuine occupational requirement - and obviously clergy is one of them.

In the Church of England charging a fee for a baptism is illegal. (There is a small fee for a legal certificate of baptism if you want one.) There are ministers fees for taking weddings and funerals, but if the minister doing the service is in a paid post the fee is used to help pay their set stipend, it isn't extra earnings over and above their normal pay. (Retired or otherwise unpaid clergy might be allowed to keep some of the fee.)

I know someone who's a vicar and he doesn't believe in god.

He did the alpha course and kind of got sucked into church life, he liked the people and the free dinners. He lied about believing in god. He couldn't find a job and decided he'd enter the church. He made up a story about having a calling, etc and got sent on various courses.

So while he fibs and tells his bosses,parishners, etc that he believes in god, in reality he doesn't. However he does enjoy the job and seems quite good at it.

Oh, and the current selection criteria for CofE clergy are here
www.churchofengland.org/media/56413/Summary%20of%20Criteria.pdf

"They should demonstrate a personal commitment to Christ and a
mature, robust faith which shapes their life and work."

I can see where religion might be attractive to someone even if they don't believe in God - community, stability, routine.

'I do consider my self a good Christian even though I am an aetheist.'

I can only think Nutty thinks the same as my mum, that she lives in a country built on Christian beliefs and therefore she can live by them better than some who consider themselves Christians.

It's a bit of a simplistic reasoning though because it misses out the fundamental part of what it means to have faith, i.e. the relationship you have between you and God.

I don't think people go in for it as a career like they have done in days gone by when it meant a reliable measure of status and a guaranteed place in society for life, but I can imagine how a vicar might not mention their crisis of faith because of what it'd mean for the people around them. If they say they're wobbling, it might cause pain to others or even make the vicar feel they're letting others down.

It's an unusual path to choose if you didn't know for sure how you felt, unless you were in it for other (sometimes sinister) reasons.

You couldn't be 'otherwise very proficient at giving the services' of being a vicar if you didn't believe in God. It is not possible to be a good vicar, if you don't believe in God.

I suppose in theory someone could pretend, but I find it hard to believe that anyone could do that very convincingly. I knew a guy who had been a vicar and then gave it up when he began to question his faith. For someone who really did once believe, changing your mind is a big deal, and the man I knew had to have a lot of counselling.

You learn a new thing every day. I have no idea if you are bu or not but I just found out why I have so many god children

According to Richard Garnet in "The Twilight of the Gods", some Mediaeval priests were actually Satanists, including at least one Pope.

Two of the stories (The Bell of St. Euschemon and The Demon Pope) are very funny takes on this - worth a read if you can get hold of it.

It's not an easy job, and if you are conflicted doing it, must be even more exhausting.

Both my sister and brother in law have been ordained. They both went through pretty stringent selection processes (BIL was rejected first time around) two years of college (post graduate) followed by I think three years as a curate (BIL has just started).

For those who are committed to their faith/church I think it is pretty backbreaking, although the option to do less is there too. Having watched my sister burn out I would say unless you had a very deep vocation (and even then) it is not a good career. You are on duty 24/7, support is variable and stresses are high (my sister found funerals particularly stressful, especially suicides).

Career progression is quite limited, and although the free housing is a nice perk it's like military quarters, not necessarily where you would choose to live.

I am an atheist myself, and I somewhat wish my dear sister had chosen an easier better rewarded and most definitely better supported career.

I can't imagine it would really be doable without faith - how would you respond to those with a crisis of faith, or teach catechism or undertake baptism?

Reminds me of the Yes Minister episode where Sir Humphrey claims the Church is always seeking to maintain the balance of bishops between those who believe in God and those who do not.

Vicars don't have employment rights - they aren't covered by employment law because they are deemed to be self-employed office holders. So they can't sue for unfair dismissal and I guess they could be sacked for not believing.

Traditionally they had benefices which gave them the freehold of property of the benefice by virtue of being an office-holder, and were thus very hard to get rid of. This is being phased out in favour of short-term contracts.

During my childhood in a small Dorset village, we had a vicar who was at the centre of the community. He didn't really believe in God but was fairly discreet about it unless he was rolling drunk. He was an extremely educated and intelligent man, capable of endless theological and philosophical debates over a bottle of brandy that sometimes used to go on all night (I remember being kept awake). He was a bloody brilliant vicar, managed not to alienate the elderly Christians but at the same time was involved in all of our lives and also the church was a real community centre for everyone.
He was defrocked in the end and it was a terrible shame.

Eugene I am reading that one right nnow! Anyway, only God knows the secrets of men's hearts, and all that, so I guess itit all ddepends on what you mmean by belief, ,and faith, and all that. I would imagne the amount of clergy veith very serious dodoubts would be ppretty small because, like Mr Hale, they wwould not want to be deceitful in such a big matter as religion.

my theology teacher at school was an ex-vicar. He resigned when he lost his faith. The bishop at the time said that didnt matter and that they needed vicars!! (made for very interesting theology lessons-mostly ending with him saying- its all rubbish of course) Still, i think it might be a individual decision as to whether you can still do the job properly without having the belief.

I think to an extent if you do a job properly, personal choices probably shouldnt come into it, but for a profession like vicar, you probably should believe what you are saying in the pulpit.

The ex catholic priests I know all left to get married, and still have the belief, and to be honest all three of them would still be clergy if they could get married.