How much childcare/housework is reasonable to expect a SAH parent to do?

[addendumm]

Am getting really annoyed with DH who SAH and looks after DS 4 days a week while I work. He doesnt have a job at the moment.

How much housework is reasonable to get done during the day with a 1 year old who naps for 2 hours?

When the working parent is home how much time should they reasonably be expected to care for the child while the SAH parent has a break?

I would be interested to hear how others divide these responsibilities so I can work out if Im being unreasonable.

[expatinscotland]

This person is not even cleaning up after himself after making food! Much less putting on a load of wash, hoovering, etc.

He is doing nothing until she gets home and gets him to muck in.

THAT is the problem.

He has: 2/hours during the day leisure time, 3 hours/evening and 3 entire days.

She has: 15 mins/day.

She gets up every day at 5.30. He lies in till 7.30. Every single day.

This is not a fair or equal set up, regardless of who is doing the childminding.

[Arisbottle]

I agree expat.

As a SAHM my day finished when the children went to bed, my work was shared as soon as my husband got home.

As. WOHM we still have to fit everything in, I am up at 5 to do so, but now I have to start working again once the youngest children are in bed.

[jumpingjane]

I agree with janey. Looking after one 1 year old is not a full time job (especially with 2 hour naps) and the stay at home partner should be able to manage their time well enough to be able to keep the house clean and tidy, keep on top of the washing up and laundry done plus most of the shopping as this can be done with children during the day.

A childminder or someone who happens to work from home is in a totally different position as they are being paid to do a job which just happens to be based at home.

athinginyourlife- I don't think it is sexist. We after all talking about a male SAHP here. I'm not suggesting that the OP uses a heavy handed approach (she clearly has been the opposite so far) but this SAHP is totally taking the piss.

[Alibabaandthe40nappies]

No-one here has said that the SAP should take on everything, not at all.

Athing - being a SAHP on a permanent basis is different from being on maternity leave though. You will be going back to work and so the last thing you want is for your DH to get used to not having to do half the jobs.
My take is this - the more I fit in around looking after the DCs during the week, the less we have to do in the evenings and at the weekends. I still spend plenty of time with my children playing, taking them out to things and catching up with friends. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that looking after children is such a full time occupation that you can't load the dishwasher as you go along and stick on a load of washing.

[janey68]

"when you have a coherent argument come back to me" - sorry but this made me ROFL: who on earth do you think you are athinginyourlife! Talk about barrack room lawyers!

As I and many others have pointed out, it's practical for the SAHP to do more of the home stuff simply because most of it is easier to combine with being a SAHP than with being a WOHP. Those of us who worked part time while our kids were little will know this first hand. On days where I wasn't working, I had more time to fit in basic domestic stuff than on days when I was dropping the kids at nursery at 7.30 and out at work all day.

It really is as simple as that. When it comes to relaxation time, of course both partners are equally entitled to time off. And big jobs which can't be combined easily with looking after kids once they are passed the napping stage - eg grass cutting, window washing, deep cleans- of course you divvy them up. But frankly a SAHP who thinks they must only do exactly 50% of the chores is having a laugh.

[CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz]

Bollocks to that. When I had a partner, I always saw it as WHOEVER was the SAHP (we chopped and changed a lot, redundancies, someone gaining higher paid work that the other etc.), their job was childcare.

The other persons job was their paid work.

Essentially, we worked for the same amount of hours.

Each of us had a job, that took the same amount of hours. Outside those times, the hours we worked for, everything should be split equally.

Admin split 50-50. Housework split 50-50. And childcare outside the WOHP work hours, split 50-50. The only time that wasn't the case is when a DC was still BF. in which case, I took more of the childcare, and expected my partner to take on more of the housework, so it still all got done.

My Ex partner was unhappy with my views on this. He came from a very 'traditional' family, SAHM doing everything and being a martyr, WOHD doing just his paid work hours and NOTHING else.

I come from a line of people who have split things equally for 3 generations - even my grandparents did this, as in both cases, my Nans earnt more than my Granddads.

Didn't make for a successful partnership...

He's now my Ex. Because he expected to go out to work and do nothing else, yet when he was the SAHP, he expected to do childcare and nothing else. And I mean nothing, not even splitting the chores, he expected me to do it all after my work day.

He just basically didn't want to have to do housework whether he was WOH OR SAH. He didn't see it as 'Men's work'.

[CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz]

Now I'm single, and it ALL falls to me. Yet the house is tidier WITHOUT me putting any extra time into it (as evidenced by my time on MN!).

The difference? I'm not having to pick up after a lazy bastard that won't even wipe the sides when they've made a sandwich. Or pick up toys a couple of times a day.

[janey68]

As most of us have pointed out, being at home with children is not a job, nor is it so all consuming that you literally have no time to do things like stack the dishwasher, put washing on, or combine popping to the shops with a walk.

Even when I had a newborn and a toddler, taking care of them did not involve 8 hours of full on not-able-to-do-anything-else. If you're out at work you can't physically be doing the kind of light household jobs which are straightforward to fit around kids.

[janey68]

I think the only thing your post proves couthy is that you partnered a lazy sexist pig. In a relationship of equals it should be entirely possible for one partner to feel 'hey, I've got a day at home today, therefore I'll make life easier all round by doing more of the home stuff'

[wheresmespecs]

Couple of things -

I think a lot of the arguing about 'yes you can do housework/no you can't' doesn't mean much because you need to DEFINE exactly what it is you expect to be done.

Housework is potentially bloody endless... If you can agree a list of day to day chores (put washing on, put dried laundry away, wash up as you go along and tidy and wipe surfaces in the kitchen, deal with any urgent spillages on floor and carpets etc - that sort of thing) -

And then talk about how you do bigger tasks (hoovering whole house, changing all the beds, deep cleaning kitchen and bathroom etc).

I hate the phrase 'he just doesn't see it' when it comes to household mess. The truth is, he just doesn't see it AS BEING HIS JOB. He is not visually impaired, is he? He just has an expectation that the housework will probably sort of get done somehow at some point by someone..... which means 'not him now'.

So I do see this as a feminist issue. Whoever on this thread said 'having it all' has come to mean 'doing it all' has hit on something. Well, that's not on. Childcare and parenting is not just spending time with a child, whoever does it. It also means looking after laundry and meals, keeping a safe and (vaguely) clean environment - being responsible about doctors appointments, activities etc.

Yes, I do think it is reasonable to look at how demanding your one year old is. That's fair, but it is also fair to expect him to pull his weight. Not 'help you out', btw - but DO HIS SHARE AS A AN ADULT AND PARENT. ask your partner what it is he actually does while she is napping for 2 hours. If he says he really wants a break to sit and read his novel or watch Loose Women (or whatever) - fine, why not have a break and a breather, but not for 2 whole bloody hours. Doing a paid job, he'd only get an hour off for lunch! Then agree a minimum list to get through each day, with some 'extras' if he finds he gets through it all with time to spare.

Discuss too what you feel it is reasonable for you to do in the evenings and at weekends. That stops it being a conversation just about him and what he has to do.

[AThingInYourLife]

" In a relationship of equals it should be entirely possible for one partner to feel 'hey, I've got a day at home today, therefore I'll make life easier all round by doing more of the home stuff'"

In a "relationship of equals" it should also be possible for them to think "no, I won't load the dishwasher today, I'm going to spend some time with my toddler who is not coping well with their new sister."

Or "I will leave the washing until this evening because my children want me to dance with them."

There can be no expectations that one person should get certain housework jobs done just because they are doing childcare in a "relationship of equals".

"As most of us have pointed out, being at home with children is not a job"

So not having a job means you have to be the skivvy.

Gotcha.

[AThingInYourLife]

Housework and childcare are two separate domestic responsibilities.

It only makes sense to dump all of the former on the person doing the majority of the latter in a world where they are both low status roles given mainly to women while the big important men wrestle with the "responsibility of paid work".

It's not about flexibility or everyone who worked for themselves would be expected to do the housework too.

It's not about it fitting in easily with childcare or CMs would not be let off doing housework while they cared for children.

It's about money and the power and status that is expected to go along with that.

A man with a working wife can get away with being a lazy twat, but the second she stops earning he has a god-given right to expect her to start looking after him and to give up all domestics chores.

Then we apply that unfairness to a man who lost his job and call that equality.

It's bullshit.

The reason this guy is a pisstaker is because he thinks that he should hand the kids over to his wife when she is not at work.

Not because he doesn't spend his weekdays doing housework while he looks after a 1 year old.

[janey68]

Gotcha lmao!

Honestly, athinginyourlife- I'm sure all of us who have been SAHP or worked part time absolutely manage to dance with our children, have plenty of cuddles and stories etc etc. and still manage to fit in the light everyday household tasks which quite frankly in 2012 are no biggie!

Where'smespecs is spot on- if you are at home of course it's reasonable to do the basic household stuff, with bigger jobs divvied up fairly between both partners

I would hazard a guess that the ops partner is not happy as a SAHP, as often this is when resentment and the passive aggressive 'I'm deliberately not going to tidy up to score some sort of point ' creeps in.

When I worked 3 days, I very happily looked after the children and did more household stuff on the other 2, because this was a great balance at this time in my life and I enjoyed my days at home all the more because of my time at work. The ops partner is either downright lazy, or is maybe isolated and feeling low and that's surfacing as being selfish and unmotivated.

[HandbagCrab]

The last thing I want to do on the days I look after ds is start doing all the chores round the house at 8pm after he's gone to sleep. I want to have a bath, watch telly, surf the net, generally chill out. And I want dh to chill out too.

When I brush my teeth in the morning I make beds, straighten up upstairs, open curtains.

Bring washing down and put in on.

Milk and chill with ds.

After ds breakfast when he's in his high chair I empty dishwasher, wash ds' stuff up, wipe down kitchen. I do the same at lunch.

At some point I'll put the washing out or in tumble dryer.

I'll do an online shop once a week whilst he naps on me. We will go for a walk and grab some bits from the shops.

I do teas that go in the oven and require little prep. I'll make two meals at once e,g roast a big chicken.

When dh gets home we do lunches, dish up tea, tidy up kitchen, set off dishwasher, put clothes away, put toys away and do bedtime together.

When dh is at home all day (e.g if I'm on a training course or away at the weekend) he does the same. We share the housework at weekends.

I'm not put upon or an unpaid skivvy and neither is dh. I spend the vast majority of days with ds playing, going places and relaxing. Id be cracking up doing everything you do op.

[janey68]

Handbag- that sounds very similar to my days at home when I worked part time. It's really fitting the day to say stuff into your routine, not being a slave to anything or anyone. It's also pretty sensible IMO for children to see from the age dot how things like doing the washing and tidying round are normal life, and it makes it a lot easier when they're a little older and you want them to start sharing simple jobs like carrying their plate to the dishwasher. No child needs undivided attention for the 10 hours or so a day that the working partner is out of the house- and it wouldn't be good for them if they had it!

[AThingInYourLife]

Well if the tasks are "no biggie", then not doing them is no biggie, either, right?

If it's "no trouble" to do them in the day, it's no trouble to do it in the evening or at the weekend.

If this work is so inconsequential, why does it so outrageous to think that a person who has a job can do half of it?

[LingDiLong]

I have to add though, that the OP is NBU in feeling put upon - domestic chores are not being shared equally here. It's fine for him to feel he can't do a lot while he's at home on his own with the child. It's not fine for him to sleep until 7.30 every week day morning while the OP gets up, to hand the child over at 5.30 and expect to do nothing for the rest of the evening or for the OP to feel it's her 'job' to catch up on the housework on her day off. I wouldn't be happy with that at all.

Janey - filling out daily records has nothing to do with it. When I took on the role of SAHM I took on the role of childcarer. I didn't take on the role of housekeeper. For me 'just looking after my own children' meant doing all the things I do now as a childminder. Actually one of the best things about being a childminder is that I am released from the expectation (from myself, from the world at large) that I should be spending a significant proportion of my time cleaning the house just because I'm at home with a child.

[AThingInYourLife]

Exactly, LingDi.

The OP does not get to have "expectations" for what her adult partner gets up to during the day while he does the childcare.

But she does get to have expectations for how the home should be run when they are both there. That should be done together. And right now it is not.

[janey68]

Oh absolutely athinginyourlife. If you want to point score as SAHP, I can quite see the mindset you describe, that you'll deliberately avoid doing the daily tasks such as loading the dishwasher, wiping up, putting on a wash and leave them for your partner to do when they walk in from work.
Fortunately most of us are in partnerships where we genuinely see ourselves as equal and our self esteem doesn't depend on trying to artificially manufacture situations where the working partner has exactly 50% of chores left for them to do!

[Arisbottle]

It is no biggie to them during your day. It is a whole different matter trying to do them after a day of work, particularly if you have a demanding job. If we could afford for DH to be a stay at home parent I know that he would want to get most of the housework done during the day. Presently to get our housework done our day starts at around 5am. I know that if one of us could change that we would do.

I work outside of the home from around 7am until 6pm, I have a further few hours of work to do at home each evening. Beyond cleaning bathrooms in the evening, I just do not have the time or energy to do housework in the evening. Having been the parent at home I know that I had the time and energy to get most of it done during the day. During the school holidays when I am at home , again I do most of the housework whilst looking after the children and often other children . Not because I am a martyr or am oppressed but because I have the time during the day. During the holidays is the only time that DH and I and to some extent the children have proper time together in the evenings, during the week, we do not want to spend that time doing housework

[wheresmespecs]

Sorry, but a certain amount of domestic/household business is PART of looking after a child.

they have to have clean clothes (that fit) to wear, that are suitable for the time of year. They have to eat. That means someone needs to do the laundry and someone needs to buy food, cook it, however simply, and then clean up afterwards. If you have a crawler, you need to keep the floors clean to some degree. And actually, I would expect a cm to do that. I would also not expect my child to be looked after in a household where the kitchen and bathroom were a shithole.

Outsourcing specific roles to paid professionals doesn't have much value as a comparison though. Of course you don't ask a cm to clean your house, in the same way I don't ask my cleaner why the hell she's not looking after my kids too. When you specialise and professionalise jobs, you are not replicating domestic life. That's kind of the whole point of it.

If you decide that as a SAHP parent, you are exempt from any domestic duties, do you then expect the parent who does a paid job outside the home to do the majority of the household tasks?

As I've said below - big 'deep clean' housework is hard to do with children, esp if they are clingy or want to get involved - small 'do it as you go along? tasks like laundry and washing up are totally do-able. and you don't do kids any favours by never letting them see their parents doing washing up or vaccuming, and understanding that chores need to be done.

[HandbagCrab]

I do it when I'm at home, dh does it when he's at home, we do it when we are at home. I'm just at home more than dh is at the moment.

Also I think daily housework like washing, dishwasher, wiping round and washing up is easier to do a little bit at a time at the time. A mountain of washing up to do in a filthy kitchen at 9pm is a massive job whereas washing a few plates after breakfast or lunch and using the soapy water to wipe round is a 5 minute thing.

It's just not an area I get worked up about myself because dh is not a throwback who expects me to do stuff and doesn't see dirt. Our battleground is DIY :)

[wheresmespecs]

again, being realistic -

we aren't talking (surely) about a SAHP being expected to keep a house in showroom condition and to have supper on the stove bubbling away and their best frock/suit on when their partner returns from work.

We are talking about doing the laundry. Loading a dishwasher. Not leaving a kitchen messy from your own meal preparations for your partner to clear up after you hours later. Cleaning something up off the floor if you spill it.

Why would any able bodied SAHP not be able to do that?

[Arisbottle]

It really shouldn't be a significant proportion of your day. When my husband was working and I wasn't I would get up with him around 6:30am we would have breakfast together and then as he left the house, around half seven I would start the housework as the children were getting up. The dishes would have been done the night before and the kitchen floor mopped the night before so I would be washing the breakfast things from DH and I and the children. After the children were dressed and settled to play or in my sling, I would dust and Hoover . I would then do something with the children. As we got up in the morning we would leave our duvet to air, so around mid morning I would do the bedrooms while the children pottered around after me. Once or twice a week I would do some ironing for an hour or so. After lunch time my time was my own to devote to the children. The only thing that would need doing was emptying the dishwasher and filling it again with lunchtime things, if we had eaten at home. At about 5pm I would need to be home to do dinner. It was not hard, in fact it was much easier than trying to get all the housework done around a job.

[Arisbottle]

I agree wheresmespecs.