To avoid a child

[buggyRunner]

Hi,

a bunch of us met at surestart and became really friendly at breast feeding cafe and our friendship has grown with our children- and our dc's are all 3 and we are all close friends. All dc's have been through various stages and a few of us have had 2nd dc's (youngest is 14mths). However, one of the 3 yolds behaviour is really challenging.

It has been this way (noticable and quite destructive) since he was 2. However, the consequences are getting worse. He is very tall and pushes, punches and fights consistantly and without warning. I must also add that he is also very sweet and at times an absolute joy but the violence is overshaddowing everything.
His mum is struggling and we are all offering support- she is at her witts end.

The problem is that he really hurts the children and literally punched my 14th month old in the face twice on a 2 hour play date - without arguing just walked past her turned and swung his fist in her face. I was sat next to her and it was so unexpected i couldnt stop his fist. He is like this at every play date- playing nicley for a minute then just attacks a child- not anyone specifically- just who ever he is near. I also have a 3 year old so i have them at my side all the time as to protect them. Which doesnt make the parties, play dates etc enjoyable.

Yet it isnt enjoyable- it is difficult, fustrating and I dont want my children traumatised. The other parents feel the same. I have tried to arrange parent only things as I really like his mum and think she could do with the support. I have offered more activity play dates but that makes it harder for her as he will run off but at least I can put my dd2 in a pram and dd1 can hold my hand. The children in the group are all frightened of him at a recent party they were all sat on settees clinging to their parents.

I just dont know how to react- as his mum tells him off but says if you do it again were going but doesnt go iyswim. We have always met up with everyone but she has missed a few times because of his behaviour so I dont want to put her off coming but I am a parent first and a friend second iyswim
wwyd?

Watching with interest as I have a similar (not as bad I think) situation developing. Little boy same age as DS but just violent. Doesn't stop when told to, mother (who is lovely) obviously upset by his behaviour, but I'm not sure what her strategy is for dealing with it. Her son doesn't seem to listen at all.

I am absolutely clear in my mind that I can't keep meeting up and encouraging my son to play with someone who he is already very wary of, and who will attack him physically.

I do not know if it is right, or polite, or sensible or meaningless to tell this boy's mother why we won't meet up, or talk to her about it. I can't offer any expert advice - I have thought that her 'reprimands' are very soft and not suitable for the boy's age and verbal skills (she does a lot of 'explaining' and reasoning, which sounds like it would be good for older children or adults! but when her son has virtually no language and doesn't listen to her, I don't see how he can understand. It certainly doesn't change how he behaves). That said, if her son turns out to have learning disabilities or behavioural problems then those observations are useless really.

Tough situation and obviously tough for the boy's mum as well, but I won't put DS in a sitatuation where I know he is scared and likely to be attached. He's not even 3 yet. End of.

When I was in this situation, eventually I did tell the mother why I was avoiding them. Subtly at first, and then bluntly.

She still seemed to think I was being unreasonable and kept on pestering to meet up etc, but I felt better about the whole thing.

In the case of my friend, yes it was tough for her, but there are so many fantastic resources available to parents struggling with behaviour, (which she was more than capable of accessing), that there really is no excuse for letting that kind of behaviour carry on and on.

Most importantly- if you know that your child is a risk to others, do not keep putting them in high risk situations whilst you sit on your arse drinking coffee, leaving other parents to protect their children from yours!

Do not feel guilty about doing what is necessary to protect your child.

I really feel for you op as I was in this position myself, only it was my child that was being violent.

She started at about 2 (terrible twos?) and I think in part she was reacting to me being heavily pregnant. Her behaviour worsened after I had DD2. For done reason she would always target the same little boy. I consistently followed through with time out etc and went as far as hovering around her during playgroups. It was so distressing for me.

I was close friends with the boys mother. Even though I felt like I was doing my best (I even consulted a behaviour expert HV who confirmed I was habdling the situation correctly) over time the mother understandably felt over protective of her DC (my DD would push him over but never punched or hit him). She began to try and discipline my DD even though I was already handling it.

In the end she was so sure that my DD was always in the wrong that when her son started goading my DD by prodding her she was totally blind to it. The final straw came when she screamed in DDs face for pushing her son after I saw him prod her. I didn't say anything, I just left but I never saw her in the same light again and our friendship suffered.

Ironically she has gone on to have another DC and he is very much like my DD was at that age so I often wonder if she is now referring not being more understanding with my DD and I know she would never tolerate anyone screaming at her DC like she did mine.

Not sure of the point of my post since I think the child you describe sounds much more violent than my DC was but it jogged my memory and thought I would give another perspective. By the way, my DD grew out of that phase and is lovely, sweet girl who is rarely violent whilst her child has started to be a bit more rough and tumble as a lot of boys are. I hope this situation resolves itself somehow op as I know how distressing it can be for all concerned.

I've encountered a very similar situation, but (hopefully) am coming out the other end of it now. My tactics were as follows:

1. My house, my rules. If he did something naughty I would tell him that such behaviour is not acceptable in my house and he must either stop it or leave. He knew I meant it. (Incidentally, "rude" behaviour also included talking nastily to his mum when she tried to correct him.)

1. In other environments, vote with your feet. If his behaviour is unacceptable, then tell him so. If it continues then leave and take your DC's with you.

It might sound harsh, but IME it's the only way to get the message across when a child won't take your word for it. Perhaps his mother's love is unconditional, but mine isn't and it's important for kids to understand the basics like "If you punch people, they won't want to play with you."

I have no time for ineffectual parenting. If a parent isn't going to follow through with proper discipline of their child who is doing these things, then I simply wouldn't mix with them whilst children were with us.

My children would be my priority, not the friendship of anyone, no matter how nice they are.

I would spell out, politely but firmly, that is she didn't properly closely supervise and remove her child when he behaved like this, then we wouldn't be able to meet up anymore. Also to tell her that maybe she needs to ensure that GPs are doing the same as she is.

Reading with interest as we have a friend whose son is a bit like this (though not very violent, there can be a bit of shoving, he's just bouncing off the wall uncontrollable mostly). He had to leave nursery as he was constantly on time out. His parents just say he is a 'free spirit'. The sad thing is, he is at heart a nice little boy but on the cusp of not being nice any more due to a complete lack of boundaries. The invitations have dried up because people can't handle him.

In this case, the parents don't agree with how to parent him (mother wants to do more discipline, father completely undermines this as he sees any attempt to limit his behaviour as some kind of fascist restraint). I wonder if your friend is suffering the same with the GPs? They might be completely eroding her confidence.

There was this little girl who tormented my daughter. This girl was a few years older and absolutely mean.

Recounting an episode involving this little girl to another parent, I referred to the little girl as a bitch (and I meant it).

The girl's mum overheard, fortunately. She needed to hear how evil her offspring was.

And there's me... Mother of 'one of those' children who has been called everything from a 'nagger' to a 'Sargent Mayor' to a 'fucking control freak'

I am have told I should 'Give him a good hiding' in one breath and that 'I am too harsh on him in another'

My son has ASD... I didn't know until he was 6... His diagnosis was prob delayed because I was so busy believing that it was all my fault that I spent my time hoping that the latest reward chart or consistent approach would work.

Anyway I have sorted it now... Strict routine and tight restrictions on social circle. A very small circle of safe friends and supported activities. That by the way was in the end to protect HIM from hearing negative comments from adults rather than protecting the children as I got very swift at lifting him at first sniff of danger (then I was told 'God! You never leave that kid alone')

So no one gets hurt, everyone's happy... we only go out if it's planned in advance, with people we can trust not to openly be shuts if he gets it wrong... It's a recommended strategy though a friend of mine once commented that prisoners have more freedom than me and said that she would rather have other children hurt that live like we do.
Harsh but true if I am honest - the reality for families to solve these problems are not simple solutions that take a few weeks but a way of life that takes years to be trusted.

What should you do OP... If you not willing to be one of her safe circle then break it off. You'll just be one of many in the end.

Course you'll potential miss him coming out the other side... And that... Well THAT is worth every bite, hit and tantrum - or so I am told by my inner circle.

VintageRainBoots

'Evil' and 'bitch'

She's a child. Your post has just made me cry because it brought back a lot of different moments from my sons life..
.
Called a 'a fucking little shit' by his nursery key worker
Pointed at by a parent whilst she said 'he was the reason I moved my child from the school' like he was deaf / unimportant
Put on a wrist strap by his childminder aged 6 - never has bolted but it 'controlled him'
Taken out of class when inspectors in school

It's just behaviour but when they are treated like that because it well they start to believe that they are not worth very much and are infact 'evil bitches'

As for that mum - I guarantee you that she did not need to hear it. I can remember every detail of the day I overheard what his nursery key worker said... Right down to what he was wearing... I felt like I had been stabbed in the heart - I walked away fighting tears, got through the day, put him to bed then sobbed for 2hrs solid.
It came down to this - he was my baby and I vowed to love him and keep him safe yet an adult who I had allowed to breathe the same air as him thought that of him.... I had failed him.

They are children. End of the day.... Vulnerable children.

And "just behaviour" is no excuse. "Bullying" is just behaviour, but it should never be accepted behaviour. Ever.

Of the two children involved in that incident, it was my child who was most vulnerable, and I had a duty to protect her from that mean kid. And I felt an equal stab in my heart to see some brat trying to hurt my daughter.

Vintage - yes, you're feeling protective of your child and must put her interests,happiness and feeling of safety at heart which ultimately is the right thing to do. It's a parents joh to protect and nurture.

But calling a child a bitch within parental and therefore possibly earshot of other children is disgusting and vile. Ever heard of the phrase self fulfilling prophecy? Why should a child even bother to behave when he/she hears adults call them names and feels no-one cares or loves? In that scenario, you were the adult only you didn't act like one, so therefore you lost any moral high ground you may have been perched on. Plus it meant that any child within earshot would have thought calling someone unkind names was acceptable behaviour. If I was either of your 'friends', I'd be dropping you faster than the proverbial brick. At least her child had the excuse and reason of being a child. Your words, behaviour and pride in saying such a thing has no excuse.

BTW - if my LO's as badly behaved, I have no problem in my friends telling the off in my absence or dolling out time out. But neither my friends nor I would call any of the children something like you did either at the time or recounting he experience to others.

-Thanks for all the comments- I have decided to follow this plan of action:
1)Increase the number of children free nights (making them especially accessible to the childs mother- ie location and best night for her)
2)Stop child play dates completley with my 14 mth old

3)Invite him to child based activity type things ie walks in the park (however, this can be really challenging for his mum as he runs off but he doesnt get violent at this.)

I do have a question though- there is going to be a birthday party soon where all children will be going and have been invited.

How do I handle this?
I'm getting DP to come and hold DD2/ be a physical barrier as she plays (it is needed). He seems to really connect and interact really well with me- very loving and plays well then will get violent with me. However, when I play etc with him he is not hurting any other children- so should I do this (its not a hardship as he is brilliant when hes like this) but I dont want to show my dd1 that bad behaviour gets rewarded. I could invite my DF to help keep DD1 safe / watch her during this? (Literally you need 1 on 1 parent to child to protect them as he will just turn and attack)

dayshiftdorris how do you create a safe circle?

You're the adult, Vintage and even you can't behave well.

Says it all, really...

Been there with DS1, felt horrendously judged, he couldn't deal with change, loud noises etc... And lashed out physically and verbally. Called a thug by teacher in year 2, 'no child has ever been that rude to me' in year 3.

Finally got diagnosis of autistic spectrum at end of year 4 and since then I can wave a piece of paper around. All he needed was a few allowances and understanding.

An awful lot of what DS1 understands socially is learnt behaviour. I always used to explain what was going to happen and how I expected him to behave before we went anywhere. And lots of repetition - we do not hit etc.. Statements like 'if you do that again then you will have to sit in the corner' did not work as he didn't get the relationship between action and punishment. Therefore pointless.

DS2 is NT so I do get the difference. Having a NT kid is a totally different experience, he understands boundaries and punishment.

This mum is already judged, sounds like over stimulation of her kid, hence the behaviour.
I understand people's reactions, they wish to protect their own kids but feel for the mum. I think OP you sound like a really caring person and are trying to help a child that you do care about. It's your decision really, read up a bit on AS and ADHD, and you'll soon see if the kid ticks the boxes.

Have to say Vintage - with an attitude like that you'll fit in well in Guildford

Baggy-

You sound like a really thoughtful and kind friend.

It also sounds like you're going through very similar thought patterns to myself when I/my DD was going through this. i.e 'how can I protect my child, but still try to be a good friend', and thinking of practical ways that you can still include the child and their mum without anyone else's DC being hurt.

BUT- and for me this was the crux of the problem- what is this other mother likely to be doing whilst you are busy tying yourself in knots trying to think of ways to protect other children from her child??

WRT the birthday party- it sounds as though you have no faith that the mother will be fully supervising her child- hence why you are thinking of strategies to protect yours and other DC from hers. This is NOT your job! Personally, I'd do what you need to do for this particular event (your DC won't be affected by seeing you 'reward' bad behaviour once), but after that I would avoid future playdates etc altogether.

Meet up with the mum if you want to, but it's not fair on you to be expending this amount of emotional energy on another person's child.

buggyrunner

I don't think I created my safe circle of friend, more that it evolved.

Basically they were people who didn't reject us when he got it so very, very wrong. They listened and didnt judge. There were periods of time when I had good strategies that I was trying and other times when I was floundering but no matter what it was ok. Its still the same now.

Parties I dreaded more than the parents but we were invited back time and time again regardless of how long he had lasted before I had had to remove him. They dealt with the incidences with good humour and moved on from each and every incident. No pressure to conform and permission to just be.

I don't remember advice or suggestions, just listening and the only time they openly stepped in was one particular meet at a soft play area - it was quiet in there - just our group and another group. It was around the time of diagnosis and it was tough, he had assaulted a teacher about a week before. A girl came off the equipment crying say 'The boy in the red top just hit me'.... one of my group knew of one of the mums in other group and muttered 'oh god not good'...
The group started up about how 'little shits' like that shouldnt be allowed out, that his mother should be ashamed, etc and braced myself as my son was heading towards me about to out me as his mum but I realised something - My little group of friends had pulled their chairs round me in a circle and as my boy headed towards me one leaned over and said 'No matter what happens he's MY son... OK! YOU are not dealing with this - go to the toilet'

I did... my friend took the shit for me. They have never done anything like that before or since.

They never judged and never pressurised... just accepted my reality and ran with it... that's a safe circle and you just find it through trial and error x

dayshiftdoris, your testimony is very moving.

I cut a friend out after she didn't do anything about her ds constantly attacking my dd. When he nonchalantly walked up to my dd and smashed her in the face with a metal toy train and split her lip I was incandescent with rage. It came after several incidents where she failed to keep him in check. I told her in no uncertain terms to never darken my door again. My dd still has a lump on her lip 3 years later.

I can see it from bth sides, my dd 5 has ASD, is emotionally and socially immature. Op wether the child has Sn r not, there is noway you have to put your child at risk f being assaulted or hurt like what happening now. The mum s ibviously not coping and cannot handle the situation to keep her child from hurting others. In tat case playdates are not a good idea. There is no reason why you cannot be a supportive friend, recommend she sees her health visitor or GP as her ds could have some form of sn

You need to do two things - buy her a book called toddler taming and get her to follow through with leaving the play date the first time he hits anyone. He will learn but it will take fair and firm boundaries with lots of attention to good behavior.

I had a friend whos child kept violently attacking my child. We had a very close and open relationship and we discussed things honestly. At one point I had to ask for a few months break as my son was finding it hard - us grown ups met in the evenings instead. Years down the line our kids get on ever so well and there is no violence.

I think from your point of view, you need to be able to see that your friend is taking appropriate action when these incidents happen.

Next time something happens to your DC explain that she needs to follow through with her leaving play date punishment and if she doesn't can you remove your children from the play date and do something nice with them.

I have a friend whose sons behaviour was like this, the problem was she just didn't discipline him. In the end I just didn't meet up with her as I got so annoyed that she wasn't telling him off, so I just let things cool off and the friendship fizzled out. We are now friends again as it happens as she realised why she was losing all her friends, and also that she has to discipline him.

I have 2 friends who have children with behavioral problems but the difference is they do discipline them, and watch them like hawks.

So even if he does have behavioural problems you can be there to support the mum, but she still needs to deal with the behaviour. I have found when my sons are naughty I have to follow through with the punishment, and it sounds like that's where she is falling down.

You sound like a good friend, but also you naturally don't want your children to get hurt. At the end of the day it is her job to parent and discipline him, you shouldn't have to look after him at the party and be hit by him either.