To think that 60k is a lot of money to earn a year?!

[MinkSlink]

I think it is a lot of money to earn per year but it seems a lot of people on mumsnet don't think so, am I in the piss poor minority here or what?!

Offred
That is why when discussing where salaries are in the scheme of things I always refer to the median as that is the one that is unaffected by silliness at the top of the scale.
No matter how much they fart about, they are likely to stay in the top 10%

The family on 60k will have more CHOICE than the family on 13k. They won't be beholden to a system to top up their income, they can choose whether to have that second car, or the mortgage on a 3 bedroomed detached. The family on 13k will probably be forced to live wherever a HA offers them a home or left to the mercy of private landlords. A family on 60k could probably choose to cut down on certain areas. A family on 13k will already be cut to the bone.

Offred, hmrc published their annual report last week on the "tax gap", being the difference between the taxes they collect and what they think they ought to be collecting. Hmrc reckons it loses more money from people not declaring income at all (e.g. being paid cash in hand) and moonlighting (approx £3bn in total) than it does from tax avoidance (£2bn).

FGS! I wasn't saying that people on £60k should live in crappier housing. I was saying that you should be appreciative of the nicer housing that BEING on £60k affords you, and not claim poverty BECAUSE you are living in nicer housing. Truly being in poverty means that you don't even have the choice to live in nicer housing.

By all means live in a nice house. Just don't cry poverty because you do. You can choose to have a lower disposable income but a nicer house, or to have a higher disposable income but a less nice house.

The majority of people earning less than £40k can't have either. They have no disposable income AND shitty housing.

And me saying what wealthy seemed to ME, now, is true. For ME. Because I will never again be in the position where I DON'T have to worry about those things, that is what wealthy is TO ME.

I was answering the question I was asked. Truthfully.

It may not seem like 'wealthy' to you, simply 'not being in poverty', but for those with no way out of poverty, surely you can see that those things WILL be their definition of wealthy?

But even the median doesn't tell you how far money actually goes or what someone's actual income is. Since wealth is actually finite if it all gets filtered off to the top then whatever is left is divided between everyone else there may well not be enough in the pot for people to survive on so measures like the median income or top 8% wouldn't necessarily tell you £60k was a huge salary unless your measure is relatively and not realistically and the other massively important factor is dependents obviously someone on £60k who is single is vastly more wealthy than a family of six as might someone on £30k be if they have the same number of dependents but their spouse is earning £30k compared to a family with a single income of £30k. It just doesn't tell you about wealth just distribution. If the "huge" is about distribution rather than wealth then lets have less of the judge snugging about wealth.

Ok couthy but on what do you base your assumption that peopleon £60k are living in nice houses?

Meanwhile, I think the hypothetical £60,000 with 4 children family would be a sight better than the family Couthy knows, who have 3 year old triplets, and are living in a fucking *bed-sit. Apparently they get no extra support because the man's 55 hour minimum wage job puts them over the threshold. So that's a pre-tax income of less than 18,000. For five. And the children will all be wearing the same size at the same time, so that's more expensive than a family of three singletons.

You don't have to pay for NHS dental treatment if you're on benefits? Pull the other one, Offred.

I needed Root Canal work done to save a tooth. On the NHS, it would cost me £400. Or I could have the tooth removed. On the NHS. At a cost of £48.

free? I think not.

offred
the median doesn't tell you ...... what someone's actual income is
Sorry?
The Median tells you the exact figure at which half the population earn more and half earn less, undistorted by enormous salaries at the top.

How far the money goes is a choice issue (vegetarian, car driving, children, teetotal) but the raw statistic is what it is.

I know Jessie but you could easily say "well that family should count themselves lucky they don't live in Zimbabwe were earnings in good jobs are less than half what a low income family needs to live with clean water and electricity" -

Well I didn't have to pay for my root canal with my NHS dentist couthy.

Earning doesn't tell you about income though eg at the lower end tax credits at the higher end stuff you benefit from through your work.

The fact that someone earning £60k, while they may not be able to buy anything bigger than a 2-bed shoebox in my town, can choose to rent in a nicer area. Can choose to avoid the areas where people are getting stabbed every week. People on £12k don't have that luxury. They end up in the rentals where the boiler isn't working properly, where there is damp running down the walls, where the park is a no go area.

So people on £60k may not be downing Moët like it's water, by a long shot, but they still get choices to have a better lifestyle, and nicer housing.

we used to get our teeth done for free on the nhs when we were on working tax credit cos we were on £9k with a family of 5... medical exemption certificate free prescriptions too.

In my town you do. I called every NHS dentist, because I thought I was being ripped off. They all charged within £5 of each other. On the NHS.

I paid the £48 and got my tooth out. It took me 4 extra weeks of toothache to scrape the money together though. And meant I couldn't pay all of my gas bill.

bye everyone, don't think I've anything else to say!

But that is simply just what you think couthy. About other people.

Lots of these "choices" are just an illusion. Most ordinary people only have limited choices whether they are middle income earners where both parents have to work, low income families where you may be better off on benefits and trapped out of the workplace or high income single earner families where the earning partner's income means you can't actually work and possibly can't afford to retrain either.

jchocchip
kids of course still get free dentistry even at a private dentist
and free prescriptions
but out of interest, how many hours a week to get the £9k salary ?

It's a completely subjective question.

£60k is a lot if you have paid off your mortage or live in a council house, live in the north of England, have no kids etc.

£60k is very little if you live in London and have to pay private rent, have 3 kids, etc.

It is all relative.

20. you do get medical exemption if you are on low enough earnings working tax credit. bye

ophelia275
but the point is that its more than 93% of the population have, regardless of where they live and what their circumstances are.
That makes it a lot in absolute terms.

Not in absolute terms but in terms of relative distribution. If we are talking in terms of relative distribution then yes it is big although I don't think huge. If those are the terms of reference lets not have arguments about what people do/don't have.

Couthy a few pages back -I didn't mean you should have any qualms about tax credits, or that everyone shouldn't take everything they're entitled to. I just think we have a fucked up system when the state has to subsidise wages for profitable companies so that families can live. It's disgraceful.

offred
how can a £60k not be a lot in absolute terms when it is beyond the wildest dreams of half of the population of the country?

a Ferrari is not expensive in absolute terms (cheaper than most houses after all) but is absolutely unattainable for the vast bulk of people, so it is expensive.

Agree Celtic and I would add that in reality they are not so much subsidising wages but subsidising profits as tax credits allow employers to pay their employees too little and therefore make a larger than is sustainable profit.