To think that 60k is a lot of money to earn a year?!

[MinkSlink]

I think it is a lot of money to earn per year but it seems a lot of people on mumsnet don't think so, am I in the piss poor minority here or what?!

GhostShip I've been guilty of it myself, too. It turned out the other person was just an idiot, without even the defence of cushioned MC-ness!

Offred - who's talking about a family of 6? Obviously it's all relative, but obviously the 60k people have decided they can afford those children, thats another thing we need to take into account. They didn't just appear in the air.

And offred - what has post tax income per person got to do with it? A family of six would surely include 4 children would it not? Who wouldn't have any income.

I am talking about a family of six because what is being said is £60k makes you rich full stop no arguments. And no, until there is no rape, dv, contraception failure or natural conceptions of multiples people do not generally get to choose that they can afford to have the children they have.

Offred the economics of being a family versus being a single person don't work like that, do they? You don't have to increase the fuel bill by six, just because there's six people in the house. It goes up a bit per additional room, yes. Food bill goes up, yes. Council tax- well, Ghost may get 25% discount now, and a family of six wouldn't.

The point is they all need housing, heating, feeding, clothing and shoes out of the family money. They don't earn anything no. It is the only halfway valid type of comparison the per person after tax one.

Thing is Ghostship, someone might be earning 60K but you have no idea of their outgoings, where they live, the size of their family etc. You are just looking at it being mega money no matter what personal circumstances are. That's a bit naive.

So you're using extremes to back up your argument.

The average family could live off 60k comfortably, in theory (I'm not talking about London here mind)

The economies you make when you have children are in living standards, to have an equivalent living standard to a single person you would need more money there are only limited savings you can make anyway - house size, clothes don't always last through more than one other child especially if they were bought second hand, have to heat a bigger space, pay higher ct, use more fuel for cooking etc

housing is a funny one because although you say people can downsize, what about those in negative equity? Private rents are scandalous so not necessarily an option to move there either...

13.5k family of four - live in small house, have a small family car, pay bills etc. NO DISPOSABLE INCOME.

If the 60k family of four lived in the exact same circumstances as the 13.5k family they'd have + DISPOSABLE INCOME.

But obviously they wouldn't live in the 13.5k shoes. Because they can afford better, they can afford more, like internet, better clothes, MAYBE an better car and house.

So they have all these extras which result in NO DISPOSABLE INCOME. But that doesn't put them on par with the 13.5k family.

I'm not using extremes ghostship I said to you originally that at £13.5k you may well be better off than a family on £60k with 3 or more children. The whole point of this thread being £60k makes you rich, no-one struggles on that and people should STFU, all people on £60k live in nice houses and have choices that people on low salaries don't. The thread was not the average family (1.something children now?) is wealthy on £60k.

Why are you not talking about London, you were happy to lump folk on 60k all together a second ago no matter what circumstances they were in. To your mind they must be better off on someone earning 13k a year or whatever. I lived at home for many years on a smallish wage. I was quite comfortable, could afford to run a car, go out often, go on holiday etc but lived with parents to have that disposable income. I was much better off at the time than many families on a much bigger wage.

I can understand the point you're trying to make, the being on 60k doesn't automatically make you rich because you could have a lot of children etc, but the choice to have more children might have been based on the being on 60k, just like other choices.

Thing is: most of the outgoings list in this thread so far, if not all, have sounded rather optional as opposed to necessary. Now, I would say that drawing a £60,000 salary will probably necessitate a good work wardrobe, and quite possibly a car to get there on time reliably. A house within range of the job.

Other than that, what outgoings is the £60,000 family spending on, that a £26,000 family can't afford, that isn't totally optional?

Well, of course it's a lot!
It's an AWFUL lot!

(We need a Get Real smiley)

Well said barbarian

I said this on another thread but worth repeating here. There are approx 30m taxpayers in the UK. 28m of them earn less than £50k. Only 9% of the working population earn more than £50k. As I said before, if you're on £60k and think that's not a good income, then over 90% of the UK would probably happily swap with you.

And the £13.5k family are actually a real income of £21k and entitled to free NHS dentistry, opticians etc

Novice - I think there are a lot of wealthy people with tiny wages actually not least the people who don't make their money from wages. I also think if wages are too low generally (and if they weren't we wouldn't have tax credits) and the wealthiest don't get their money in wages it is a bit of a pointless measure. E.g. I know someone who is the child of a minor aristocrat with trust funds that have enabled him to buy a home in Oxfordshire at 26 who went to Oxford uni paid for by the state because his mother (who was divorced, still living in a home on the family estate and had no income or assets of her own) was on income support.

Have you tried looking for an NHS dentist in the last ten years? The lists are full for adults where I live. I have always paid for dentistry in this area WHILE ON BENEFITS.

All children are entitled to NHS glasses, provided they need them. I think the same applies to NHS dentistry for children, too.

you can put your name down on a waiting list for an nhs dentist round here and you do get one quite soon although it may be a few miles to travel to.

I just don't think you can determine by salary. And ghostship please don't think I'm getting at you and saying I think you should be living in a shitty place and being robbed, what I fundamentally think is please, let's just have some tolerance, perhaps scepticism but don't dismiss outright things people say because I firmly believe actually things are often much more complicated than they seem and we can't know what things are really like for other people just by looking at their wages.

And yes NHS dentistry is unfortunately a postcode lottery.

Oh, and if you can get NHS dentisry treatment, you seriously do not get the same options as privately-paying patients do.