To think there should be arts based specialist schools for younger children?

[SilverCharm]

Ok we have schools which are specialist schools at secondary level....some are performing arts based...others are academies with a strong background in computers or other subjects.

But why can't there be middle schools for DC aged 8 plus where the arts are stronger than the academic subjects?

People will say "Oh but 8 is too young to specialise" well I disagree. I know my 8 year old is very strong in arts based subjects and struggles with maths and science.

I know this. I see it. She's like me and she would be better off in a school where she could concentrate on building her art subjects....performance, creative writing, painting, media, music etc.

That way, she would be better prepared for a career in one or more of these fields....is it a bad idea? Why?

The problem is you could go on saying "what about.....?" I would say "Whwt about astronomy? Philosophy? Psychology? Cooking? Car maintainance?"

But you need maths and English to do anything. And until we have really really cracked making sure no child leaves without those, then the million other things can wait....

seeker has a good point there.

I need maths to do my self-assessment, my production figures and other things.

I need English to read scripts, to write scripts etc.

When I was 8 I wanted to be an actress. Now I'm 33 I have a maths degree and work as an actuary. And I really really like maths.

I suppose a lot of these things are provided by after school and lunchtime clubs aren't they.....I will have to stop being so disorganised and offer my services to DDs primary.

The HT told me she'd love a drama or craft club for the DC....I could run one of those with help but feel a bit nervous. My sister did it in her DC school and was almost overrun with kids...very challenging she said.

If she's going to be arty, she'll need to be able to manage her finances, self-assess, not to mention the creative fields that demand excellent grasps of maths and science such as architecture.

Oh yes and also not to mention Science is interesting. And I say this as an Arty.

YANBU, I was one of those children who excelled at the arts and I had a really hard time with maths and science. I am now in a creative profession and I have never needed to work out a the square root of anything, or balance a chemical equation. I can manage my money so I'm not bothered.

School is a shit place for creative people to be honest. I hated every minute of it, apart from art, English and history. I feel sorry for arty farty children in many ways, because they spend years at school essentially being square peg, while the education system tries to ram them into a nice, convenient round hole.

BBC article about the work of the charity National Numeracy.

It hopes to bring remedial maths to the workplace, to lift the standards of the estimated 17m UK workers. whose maths is currently only at primary level, to that of a 14 year old or ideally GCSE.

You say you DD won't need maths? So you are planning that she is going to be a surrendered SAHM? Because for absolutely everything you need maths.

For any employment at all you need to be able to work deductions from payslips. To be self-employed you need keep your books straight. At work You may need to handle money, plan staff numbers, order stock levels, check drug dosages (list could go on for ages). You may find she'd like to be able to compare tariffs, mortgage deals etc, check her change etc.

FunBagFreddie, I'm sorry you had a rough time at school but I had a great time. I went to a bog standard comp but my teachers were really lovely passionate people so I became not just interested in the arts but history and science and languages.

Not once was I made to feel like a square peg and nor were my siblings though we all excel in completely different fields.

Edith my maths is at remedial level. I AM trying hard to encourage DD with her maths and luckily, her school is very good at helping those who don't find it easy and are offering her extra help in a small group. If only I'd had that.

She only began this new school in year three and her maths was 2 levels behind ...they've closed the gap in only one year and now she's where she should be.

I am happy about it....I just remember the sick feeling I had in primary in the 70s when things were far shittier for non academic kids than they are now.

YABVU

Children grow and change and there is nothing to say that something science related won't suddenly spark her interest and lead to a lifelong passion.

Besides, there is no such thing as "art" in isolation. Without sounding too poncey, art reflects the world around us. The stronger someone's understanding of the world, the stronger their art/writing/sculpture/whatever.

I was considered exceptionally bright at primary/junior school. In retrospect I was probably a good all-rounder but only exceptional in certain arts/humanities subjects. I was particularly good at creative writing - my junior school stories were read out in senior school assemblies, I won every writing prize going, I was shortlisted in national competitions, all that sort of thing. I wanted to be a writer or work in publishing or journalism. I went to uni to do English literature and had to do extra subjects in the first and second years (Scottish uni) and finished up realising that I was actually fascinated by the more scientific side of language. I switched to English language and linguistics and went on to do a masters in applied linguistics at Oxford. I then took a massive side-step into law and I have been a criminal lawyer for over 10 years now.

I recently re-started writing, won a competition and have been taken on by an agent who is currently trying to sell my first novel. I said to her that I was now rather regretting not getting on with my first love of writing right from the start and she said she actually felt that it was beneficial to do other things first/as well as writing as greater world experience comes through in the writing. All her clients have done other things - one is a senior research scientist and academic, one is a horticulturalist.

There are still aspects of the "sciences" that I wish I had a better grounding in - economics for example - but I think I've done okay. I'm now about to start self-assessing for tax purposes and I can't imagine trying to do this without the basic science/legal accounting education I have.

The fact that your child is struggling with the basics is the perfect arguement for not specialising in "the arts". Even a child supremely talented at artistic subjects needs a basic academic education.
Why can't you just send your dc to some extra curricular classes?

showtunesgirl. I was a keen amature ornithologist as a child, and still am really. I don't hate science, in fact, I find it very interesting. My utter lack of talent for maths just led to teachers thinking I was mucking around and lazy. I got no help with my maths.

SilverCharm Ikwym about how schools used to be shitty places for non academic kids.

At 8, my DD was far more 'arty' than academic. In fact, she didn't know her number bonds to 10 when she was 11, due to her SN's, and she didn't 'get' science at ALL.

I purposely sent her to a Secondary that specialises in Maths and Science (though no schools get funding for their 'specialist status' any more, they still have the equipment and experience gained whilst they did).

Now at the start of Y10, she is aiming for a 'D' in Maths (a massive achievement for someone who started Y7 at NC lvl 1), and is doing so well in science that they are inning and aahing about whether to put her I for the higher tier paper to give her a chance of a 'B' as she is easily at a 'C' now.

You really CAN'T tell at 8yo how well a child will do in a particular subject when they are 16!

'my 8 year old is very strong in arts based subjects and struggles with maths and science.'
..and that is the very reason why it's a bad idea.She needs to get to grips with these subjects, not write them off!

I don't think that maths and science aren't important, but I wonder whether more time could be given to things like art, crafts and music.

All schools should encourage art, drama etc. DDs secondary has a science specialism, is strong on encouraging girls to do electronics, computer science - if that's their bent - but also seems to do great with art, drama, music both in the curriculum and via clubs and festivals.

OP, your idea of running some sort of drama/craft club is fantastic - DDs junior had some of these, they were great. Not a light undertaking but I suspect you'll find it hugely rewarding.

Moment of self-relevation here: I've just realised that one reason why, when it came to the crunch last year, I decided to finish my academic book and not my first novel was precisely my dodgy grasp on maths. As long as I stay in academe others will do my accounting for me and deliver the results in the form of a set, tax-deducted salary at the end of the month. If I tried to launch out for myself as a children's writer I'd be doing that for myself.

Dd is very set on a career in the performing arts and we are doing our best to ensure that her maths, IT and English skills stay on top as we feel she will need those, both to look after her dream career if it takes off, and to do other jobs to keep afloat until it takes off. If, that is, she turns out to be talented enough to start on her dream career in the first place.

Ds seemed very un-academic when he was 8 and was very creative at the time: he would have seemed the perfect candidate for a non-academic school. At 12, I am no longer so sure. His peers are passing him in the practical/creative stuff, I'm beginning to feel he doesn't really have the drive for that sort of thing and that his best bet would be to work a bit harder on the traditional subjects and then try to get a people-related job. People do change.

I also have my db in mind. He was very musically gifted and worked on his violin playing for many hours a day, taught by an excellent teacher from the Symphonic Orchestra. There was no doubt he had the drive and the talent. But after his first year of Conservatory, they discovered that he had a slight stiffness in his fingers which meant he would never have the career he dreamt of. Because he had kept up with his school subjects he was able to move sideways and have a different, very satisfying career instead.

The real problem with having schools that close down avenues at 8 is, it won't be about the children and what they want out of life: it will be about parents projecting their own fears and insecurities.

Which for my dd would have meant not being allowed to find out that she is good at performing arts and interacting with people, because her mum only feels safe behind a pile of books and I would have been likely to assume that my academically gifted daughter was the same as me and that what was good for me would be good for her. I am very pleased that she has had an educational experience that has allowed her to discover other sides of herself, that are turning out to be more important to her, rather than having all her choices made at too early an age. Just because she looks like me to some extent doesn't mean she is me.

The real problem with having schools that close down avenues at 8 is, it won't be about the children and what they want out of life: it will be about parents projecting their own fears and insecurities.

Spot on. Good post, Cory.

I think it's also important to make the child feel like they aren't academic because it may not even be true. My siblings are great at Maths and Science and I grew up feeling like the dunce of the family. But when it came to exams, I totally surprised myself by doing much better than I expected. I got top grades in English which have totally helped me in my career.

Such a good post, cory!

Doh. I meant to say: I think it's also important to not make the child feel like they aren't academic.

In theory if you open a free school you could have a state primary with a bigger emphasis on arts, spots, music your name as free schools do not have the follow the national curriculum.

Ds is the opposite your the OP dd. He hates art with a passsion and adores Maths, IT and Science. We have been looking at secondary schools and specialist secondary schools don't actually exist. The school that specialises in ICT still follows the national curriuculum and does exactly the same as the school that specialises in performing arts. Specialist state secondary schools don't really work as none of them are allowed to select on their specialism.

I think you need to look to extra curriuclar activites to inspire and develop your daughter.

Maybe your dd is or isn't going to have a maths or science-based career, bu

t you don't need to make this a certainty by writing her off at age 8. Maths is, in general, very poorly taught, with almost half of children losing interest by their second year of school. That is not to suggest these children are incapable, but rather that they haven't been well taught.

Why not give your daughter a chance to gain confidence in maths and science in a way you never had? She may surprise you.

My cousin got her daughter a tutor, a lovely teenager, to help her with maths and it made the world of difference. She is now totally "switched on" to maths.

And your dd is at a great age for such help, great to have the confidence in place before she leaves primary school.

There's always Steiner schools if you don't agree with the mainstream education system. I think they are quite expensive though. Don't know too much about them tbh.

Steiner schools are not partiuclarly expensive by private school standards. There is one locally to us and they certainly do teach maths and the three sciences to A-level standards (and get respectable results!)

Steiner schools are unconventional and you really have to buy into their philosophy. Ie. they are opposed to the use of computers with young children and teaching reading before 7. There are lots of very negative threads on Steiner schools, but some people love them.