to be concerned about 16- and 17- year-olds being able to vote in the Scottish Independence referendum?

[Foibles]

My son (17) has just brought home a school magazine written by his fellow sixth formers. It has Alex Salmond on the front page, his arm round the magazine's 'politics writer', a boy who is a fervent supporter of Scottish Independence, and who has written the leading article. A lot of space is devoted to the arguments in favour of Scottish Independence, which are very enthusiastically put, but lip-service is also paid to the Unionist side.

The front page article about independence continues inside the mag, where there is also an interview with Alex Salmond. In another piece a teacher gives his own pro-Independence views.

These young people are living in interesting times, and it is important that they engage fully with this debate.

AIBU to be concerned that these people are not getting the full picture?

I think it should be only 18+ voting, like any other vote. My boys are in a Scottish primary school and its incredibly pro-Scottish and I don't think High Schools are any different, so school age children are very likely to be persuaded to vote for Independence.

Independence could be the best thing for Scotland - at the moment anything is possible. I quite like the idea of a brand new country that we could do what we like with. But I don't want young people to be bullied, tricked, bribed or manipulated into voting for it.

I know what you mean, Rainbow. There is also a lot of anti-English feeling under the surface - especially in the school sports teams - and it's not all innocent banter.

It's hard to prove, of course, and easy to shrug off normally - but not if it's going to be instrumental in persuading a young person to vote against their own best interests.

At that age, I knew more, cared more and was better informed than I am now. I wish I had been able to vote that evil Margaret Thatcher out but I was too young. I really believe children should be able to vote and I would go younger than 16. Young people don't vote in large numbers. How wonderful to have them vote for something so important. Maybe it will get them interested and involved.

I think that Alex is being very sneaky, knowing that being able to vote at 16 and 17 will be a gimmick to gain more votes for independence. Many young Scots I think will vote for Independence as they are starting to become politically and historically aware and can be quite passionate and romantic - he'll probably throw in a free screwing of Braveheart for them to get them in the mood.

On the other hand, if they can leave school, work and pay taxes, get married and join the army then I guess that is saying they are old enough to have a say in who runs the country and any important issues affecting them.

The thing about the parents'evenings, Miss Annersley, is not that they talk politics at all, normally. It's much more about the underlying feeling. For example, if the speaker starts off with a joke, it's bound to be a snide poke at the English. It seems to be a sort of guilty pleasure for some, but for others it can be quite nasty. It doesn't do them any credit, and I know some Scottish parents are quite embarrassed by it. Others try to take the sting out of it by saying it's just a joke.

But if they can get away with it at a parents' evening, they are not going to pull their punches when in their own classrooms.

There's two issues here though, isnt there? Whether 16/17 yos should be allowed to vote - which is out of your hands - and the perceived bias towards independence in your son's school/teachers. Personally I'd be taking that newsletter to school and having a conversation about it to the HT and on to the council if necessary. Teachers should be balanced in this situation, of course they should. And they should be using the referendum to teach critical thinking and reasoning IMO.

I would give the same response if the newsletter was pro-union btw, and I'm a fully paid up member of Better Together.

BegoniaBampot, I probably think they should wait until they are 21 to vote (and 25 to drive, and 37 to get married and 92 to take out a mortgage) - but whatever the age, they should have the information they need to make an informed choice. That means all sides of the argument, imo.

And imagine if there was a school where the vast majority of the staff were in favour of independence. Who would provide the counter arguments? Tbh that could be a pretty intimidating place even for the teachers who disagree.

Well you can't ban politics in schools. But ime most teachers have other things to think about!

WilsonFrickett, I might have to backtrack a bit here. I don't really know what the rest of the teachers think. I suppose I'm just talking about the parents' evenings and the school newspaper, and the two teachers my son told me about.

It's just made me think what if they were all rabid anti-English campaigners, and did want to influence our kids - what could we do about it??

Well as a parent if 16 and 17 year olds a while back I would say they are usually gobby and believe they know everything.

Bit like Alex Sammond actually.

To be honest though if Scotland vote to dissolve then good on them. Go and good luck with your decision and finances.

I suspect most English people wish you luck/don't give a crap.

Ahemmm... 'screening of Braveheart' not 'screwing of Braveheart' though sure that would go down well with the young ones.

I went to a heavily pro-Tory school with heavily pro-Tory teachers. Guess who did a caricature of Margaret Thatcher with dripping, bloody fangs for her art project? They will only listen tot the teachers of they make sense to then. 16 and 17 year olds can be very astute and well informed. I was.

Well in my school Terry that would have been an automatic pass! I was a diehard socialist as were most of my teachers. That didn't bother me then, but it would now, definitely.

OP, I do think a lot depends on what those teachers you mention teach, actually. A maths teacher making a passing comment about independence and then getting on with their class is one thing, a Modern Studies teacher who the bases a term's work on the subject is another. And the snide anti-English comments is another again. It wouldn't be ok to start an assembly with anti-Asian comments, would it? Anti-English casual racism is something that should be challenged IMO.

I think for every piece of pro-independence propaganda there will be at least two anti-independence elsewhere - television, newspapers, radio etc. to my mind are generally for the status quo.

Also at that age I was rarely influenced or interested by what my school teachers had to say - or by school sanctioned newspapers.

I just hope/wish everyone interested in voting takes the time to try and figure it out for themselves.

I am all for the 16/17 year old vote - it is going to effect them more than me!

The teacher interviewed in the mag teaches Modern Studies.

I don't know if it's racist, exactly, WilsonFrickett. It's more along the lines of ABE - Anyone But England - as in the teams they support. I don't think it helps to be too sensitive about it, although it can be unpleasant, as I said. Also, they wouldn't dream of making remarks like that about Asians or any other ethnic minority - it would never occur to them. But the English are fair game.

We tolerated the teachers when I was at school, Tapsel, and yes, you're right, it wouldn't have made any difference to me what they thought about things.
But my son and his friends seem to see their teachers as people and know quite a lot about their lives and opinions. Extraordinary as it may seem, they even listen to what they say. Except when they block them out completely, as in when they are explaining the homework, of course.

So they can't buy alcohol or drive a car but they can make a decision about the future direction of the nation?

It's just Salmond trying to rig the vote in his favour. Let him and good riddance to Scotland.

Pro independence doesn't equal anti English.

That's a separate issue.

Foibles, thank you for being honest about the Anyone But England attitude that is alive and well in Scotland. In recent discussions on here about Scottish Independence, I found Scots posters were not willing to admit that it happened, or were playing it down to a level where it was of no importance. But I disagree, I think it's an attitude that is very common in Scotland, and as I have a lot of Scottish family and have Spent a fair amount of time there, I know it well and truly exists.

I don't think that a reasonable and balanced discussion can be had about independence until the Scots admit that they do have a xenophobic attitude towards the English.

Scottish independence aside, I would not be happy giving the vote to 16 year olds.

If I had the vote at that age I almost certainly would have voted for the National Front. Why? Because I was immature and politically very naiive.

I am sure there are many 16 year olds who are not as stupid as I was, but immaturity can lead to extreme views that maybe ironed out after a couple more years of experience.

(Actually, I am a bit extreme over this and really believe that the age of majority should be at least 21, but I'm probably not going to win many people over with that view)

Yes, I agree with your concern, it's representation without taxation, and all teenagers are self-righteous idealistic idiots really if they have any interest at all. Mine is lovely, really bright, but he's had too little experience to be anything but a total muppet where "the world" is concerned.

Apparently Cameron only went along with it because otherwise Toad of Toad Hall would have had the trump card of saying "see the nasty English want to take away our voting rights". Undoubted effort to swing the vote.

I am very concerned about this at the moment. I was always an SNP supporter. That was until the antics of the party over the last couple of years. I really dont understand the complexities of the situation but am off to try and read up on it. I suspect younger people will be more into nationalism, as someome rightly said , connected with sport. I fear David Camerons plans will push more people towards the party as well as they will see it as a way to rid ourselves of them forever.

Yes, I agree with your concern, it's representation without taxation, and all teenagers are self-righteous idealistic idiots really if they have any interest at all

At 16 you can leave home, get married, start a family, get a job and pay tax. (and a slew of other things)

Surely you should be able to vote as well?...

Yes you're right about the paying tax, I suppose I assumed they'd all still be at school. But actually you can't get married without your parents permission.

I fear David Camerons plans will push more people towards the party as well as they will see it as a way to rid ourselves of them forever

Well yes, that is kind of the point :-) Being ruled by who everyone in Scotland votes for, rather than by who rUK votes for.