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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To rehome puppy?

395 replies

MarsBars123 · 07/10/2012 18:49

Our 6 month old puppy bit our friends 6 year old daughter today.

We were having a meal and gave him his food afterwards. She walked behind him while he was eating and he spun around and bit her, he didn't draw blood but her hand was red.

I am in total shock, he has never done anything like this before, should we rehome him straight away? I'm really confused.

OP posts:

TantrumsAndBalloons · 09/10/2012 10:38

Could you just explain what you mean by putting the dog in a submissive position until it gives up?

LookBehindYou · 09/10/2012 10:41

Do you suggest I put my rottie on his back to get him submissive when he's being agressive? (he isn't, he's a huge softie)

This is a bad idea. Really, really bad. Please don't read this and think it's the way to go.

D0oinMeCleanin · 09/10/2012 10:42

I've fallen out with reinforcement training after having to try and understand the science-y side of it with all it positive punishment and negative reinforcement.

But negative is not always bad, in terms of dog training it simply means taking something away to either reinforce a behavior e.g taking away a potential threat to reinforce calm behavior as used in BAT (which would be negative reinforcement) or to extinguish a behavior e.g taking away attention when dog is being boisterous, which would be negative punishment.

Negative = taking something away
Reinforcement = to increase a behavior
Punishment = to decrease a behavior

I had to write that down to prove to myself I understood it, it didn't work. I am still confused

But in simple terms, yes, positive, reward based training has been proven again and again to be more effective than training based mainly on punishment and to have less negative side effects than punishment based training.

Also dogs are more visual than they are tactile, they respond best to body language and visual cues, as they would use between their own species, than they do to touch. If Flatbread's dog sits when she touches it's back to with no previous training to connect the touch with the behaviour, then sadly, I think it is sitting because it expects to be hit and is attempting to appease Flatbread and/or to move away from the threat (Flatbread)

LookBehindYou · 09/10/2012 10:44

I don't agree dooin. Sometimes I touch my dogs shoulder, especially if something else has caught his attention, and he sits. I've never ever smacked him.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 09/10/2012 10:47

Pressure can be calming, maybe? I will stroke my dog or lay my hand on his neck if he's agitated when we're out. It often makes him sit against me and relax. My dog adores being touched, but then he has never been hit.

D0oinMeCleanin · 09/10/2012 10:55

Yes pressure can be calming. I touch certain pressure points on my terrier when he is in the car with other dogs (he gets very stressed being in such close proximity to dogs dogs who are not in his immediate 'pack' with no escape route)

Flatbread didn't say she used pressure, though, she said a "light touch", although it's perfectly possible that the dog has learnt sitting brings something positive, if a touch on the back could also mean pain might be coming I would assume the dog is reacting more to fear than comfort.

LBY you have confused me even more now and there I was trying to be all clever . Although I would say your dog has learnt your touch brings something good because you have never hit him, so he is sitting to gain reward, you've refocused him onto you, with the touch. My dogs all sit when we are starting training because that is how we always start a session. I don't need a cue for it, they can tell by my body language that we are about to start a game or training session.

I'm going to give up trying to be all clever and educated now and wander off to read some more

TantrumsAndBalloons · 09/10/2012 10:56

My big dog used to lie on his back if anyone lifted up their hand in his direction. But that was because he thought he was going to be hit. That's what he associated with anyone lifting a hand towards him

I suspect this "alpha roll" nonsense was also used on him, which is why he used to roll on his back if anyone went near him.

That may be why I have such an aversion to the submissive position thing, it took 5 months before he stopped doing it with us, and longer than that for him to stop doing it whenever another person came round.

Toughasoldboots · 09/10/2012 10:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fortoday · 09/10/2012 10:58

i havent been able to read whole thread but just wanted to add that i have a 6 month old jack russell puppy- they are known for being snappy- but I have been to training with her and as i have two dds under 5 it was important I managed the dogs expectations on where she came in the pecking order. Protectiveness over food can be overcome by getting your children to feed the dog, so she knows she comes below them in the food chain and dogs tend not to bite the hand that feeds them, I have quite a bit of literature on dog training from my trainer as i never wanted my little one snapping at the kids... good luck I can send them to you if you message me x

D0oinMeCleanin · 09/10/2012 10:59

It seems to be making a comeback Tough, a certain TV personality has a lot to answer for.

TantrumsAndBalloons · 09/10/2012 11:02

I wish it was.

It makes me so angry sometimes, especially when people are advocating these methods to someone looking for advice.

I wish people would do their research, speak to a behaviourist, anything other than pick up on submissive positions and hitting your dog being a good idea.

GoldShip · 09/10/2012 11:03

Submissive position and stay there?!

Please do sod off with archaic nonsense.

GoldShip · 09/10/2012 11:03

And how does one 'put' an animal on its back and make sure it stays there?

Ephiny · 09/10/2012 11:05

BearDog (rottie) will roll onto his back if he thinks there's the slightest chance of getting a belly-rub :)

Seriously though I would never hit or 'alpha roll' one of my dogs. There's just no need for it, and I tend to think that if you find yourself needing to use brute force or fear/pain to control a dog, you're probably doing something wrong.

TantrumsAndBalloons · 09/10/2012 11:06

I'd like to put that flipping so called trainer CM into the submissive position. And then hit him with his big stick.

D0oinMeCleanin · 09/10/2012 11:07

By putting their hand way too close to their jaws ime. Especially when you are dealing with a large, powerful breed like a Lab. Very dangerous advise for a novice.

When I have seen it used the owner has always had one hand towards the dogs rear and one on it's neck behind the do's ear, very close to the dog's teeth, a momentary lapse in concentration and you may find yourself short of a few fingers.

LookBehindYou · 09/10/2012 11:08

Apart from it being foolish it's potentially very dangerous. I would hate anyone reading this thread to think it's a good strategy.

GoldShip · 09/10/2012 11:10

tantrums I'd help you!

People have no idea how much they're damaging these animals. Another reason why people should have to have a license to own an animal.

There should be puppy owner lessons, not just puppy lessons!

Moominsarescary · 09/10/2012 11:12

Just trying to imagen my exfil putting his 16 stone 6 foot rottie on it's back, luckily he never had to as it was well trained and as soft as shit. Doubt it would have worked.

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 09/10/2012 11:35

I used to help my dog roll over (very gently and calmly) when I was teaching 'roll over'. If I were to roll him now, he'd be looking for sausage

digerd · 09/10/2012 12:10

All dogs are different, and my experience is that at 6 weeks old their personalities already show. Some are very easy going to passive when you can lie them on their backs in your arms and they do not struggle, just lie there happily and content and others struggle /wriggle agitatedly. Some older dogs roll over onto their backs inviting a tummy tickle, showing no fear of being previously hit. But the signs of fear , being very nervous and timid are quite clear to see, and with some dogs they have not been maltreated, they are just made that way - very sensitive. Fortunately, these are rare. The food aggression, is not uncommon, and some are naturally not that way. But the saying " let sleeping dogs lie" is wise, and feeding your puppy/dog infront of a stranger - not a member of his home pack, should always be avoided. But your puppy should have been be aware that his behaviour was unacceptable with suitable voice control from an adult.

digerd · 09/10/2012 12:26

ps. My experience has been with small dogs, mainly Westies, but the most aggressive was a Dachshund female, she loved and respected my husband, who did once twang her with an apple tree twig, which certainly worked, but I couldn't do that and was too soft with her and she deliberately played me up and even once irritated that I couldn't get her ball from the back of the sofa on which she was standing and pointing with her long nose to where it was, I stupidly kissed her from behind on her head and she swung round and bit me hard on the nose !!!! She had not intended to do that, just snap to show her impatience, and reacted herself in shock and regret. Yes, I had to go to Drs to have a tetanus jab and my nose swelled up- how my husband laughed - he never kissed my" baby", of course !!!

digerd · 09/10/2012 12:43

In the wild, dogs show submission to the alpha male by lying on the backs, but they know that the alpha male can kill them, but that is not so with the human alpha. A neighbour of ours did upset me when he hit his adult female Golden Retriever for jumping over the gate to greet me and my husband as we walked by. But male neighbour said it was necessary and it did work. Also, years ago, my husband and I were walking his fathers St Bernard in the woods in Germany, and the dog suddenly ran off into a field. I was horrified that my husband hit him with the lead, but he said the dog could have been shot by a farmer and he had to learn. I said keep him on the lead then. he was a gorgeous but enormous dog

Flatbread · 09/10/2012 12:45

Is that the 'Dog House Nutters' who include a qualified behaviourist who has told you by your description of your dogs body language they are beind submissive and are not happy at all Flatbread?

oh yes,the nutter on the forum whose solution to everything was to appease the dog, beg him to like you. Didn't she advise a poster to throw sausages to her food aggressive dog, to get him to release the butter? yup, very credible advice indeed. Dog growls at you, give him more food? Yeah, that kind of advice that was lapped up by the dog forum nutters.

The fact that my dogs listen and don't steal food, was a sign that they are submissive. The fact that they like to lie by my feet was a huge indicator that they are cowed This stuff would be funny, if sounds like out of a comedy, except that some of the regulars in the dog-house seem to lap up this stuff.

And I have no clue why you keep going on about my pups. I am blessed to have our darling pup and he is one of the best thing in our lives. We are in touch with other families who were lucky to get our beautiful pups, and they are so happy to have them. i can understand why you are pissed though, you would rather have people buying from breeders like you.

TantrumsAndBalloons · 09/10/2012 12:53

Which person are you addressing that to?

Tbh you are IMHO a very irresponsible owner from what I have read on this thread. You are very quick to jump all over good advice and instead advocate people hitting dogs and feeding them food from your table. I hope that no new dog owners take any notice of you.

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