to feel that most females have been the victim of some kind of sexual abuse?

[SoleSource]

AIBU?

I was very nearly raped by a taxi driver. Also my cries of NO have been ignored on a couple of occasions.

I think abusive men/sex offenders are prolific. Over a lifetime of ruining women's days/weeks/lives, they learn to judge who has been conditioned to accept it, and who is more likely to object, whether on the spot, or later on to the police/human resources/etc.

^ this

I was just reminded of a fascinating post I read a while back on predators and who they are. Really worth a read:
yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

Some quotes:

"Of the 120 rapists in the sample, 44 reported only one assault. The remaining 76 were repeat offenders. These 76 men, 63% of the rapists, committed 439 rapes or attempted rapes, an average of 5.8 each (median of 3, so there were some super-repeat offenders in this group). Just 4% of the men surveyed committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes."

And

"If we could eliminate the men who rape again and again and again, a quarter of the violence against women and children would disappear. That?s the public policy implication."

I have been groped in bars / nightclubs / walking down the street countless times - I grew up as a very pale blond teenager in south east asia. Honestly didn't bothre me, in fact as a young and stupid teenager it used to make me feel grown up somehow.

I passed out on the sofa at a house party once and woke up with someone's tongue in my mouth, which was revolting.

I was "properly" abused by a babysitter when I was seven. I think he might have done something to my brother too but I have never mentioned it because he was younger and if he doesn't remember I certainly don't want to remind him.

Having said that, I have also said no at the last possible minute to a man/boy I had only known for a few hours and he stopped. It was only the next day when the alcohol had worn off that I realised how stupid I had been putting myself in that position, I was lucky that I randomly picked a decent person.

I don't tend to get much trouble either. Saying that .. i've not been out socially for three years, since DS2 was born.

Don't know if things have changed much. Maybe i have, and will be less tolerant of funny stuff.

i'm not teetotal but i'm usually the completely sober or 'just a couple' person watching over the others.

I have spotted women that have been spiked or are too drunk to know what they're doing and have asked bouncers to seperate them from the man clinging to them. I look down with distaste on men who only seem to be able to 'get' a lady when she is incapable of rational thought or protecting herself, and actually aim to get her that way.

As i've said i have often been sat down when i've had some random man come up and try his luck, when i stand up they look like they wish the earth would open up under them .. I feel for other women who don't have that.. usually i tell my friends if i'm not around to point at the biggest man in the club and say 'thats my boyfriend' .. usually works.. but why should we have to?

I was raped and beaten up when I was 17 by a bf at the time.

I'm utterly horrified by how prevalent sexual abuse is. I have obviously been living in a naive cloud.

I've never had any unwanted sexual advances; the closest I've come is being flashed, and that alone really shook me.

My heart goes out to all of you who have been through this.

Thing is it's not just the actual touching or abuse. It is a whole culture and people not wanting to speak out and make a fuss. Was at a friends family party, a big affair in a venue. Was sitting at a table with others and her brother (early 40's whose wife and kids were nearby) and a girl I knew (didn't even like her). The brother was making horrible, disgusting sexual comments to her (she was on her own like me) while she smiled it out. I ended up having words to him, telling him he was out of order etc - no one else said anything and he got quite nasty and I was left feeling like some killjoy though I still wonder what they others really thought as he was quite a strong and aggressive person. also when I was 19 and working in a small shop, the bosses brother (older married father of a daughter) used to enjoy making disgusting sexual comments to me to embarrass me and show off in front of the young apprentices. I never really said anything as I felt foolish and wanted to show he couldn't get to me - in reality I was disgusted and angry and wanted to punch him, shout at him if he would say the same to his daughter, how would he feel if older men did the same to her.

This thread just keeps bringing more and more instances to mind.

How do we change this?
Seriously, how? There must be some way, some steps that can be taken? Cultural norms can change. In the 50s your life was over if you were a single mother. Now - not at all. So we can change. So how do we change this?

I have two boys, i'll do my best to bring them up to respect women well, everybody, but I do wonder if some sort of campaign is needed. Maybe to make the husbands, brothers and fathers out there aware of what a problem it is? Cause I'd bet they dont know!

I think one of the first steps is to take away the stupid taboos we have around sex. I always despair a little when a poster comes on MN to say she doesn't know how to tell her 8/9 year old about sex. 8 or 9 is far far far too old IMO. At that stage it is absolutely guaranteed that a child will have picked up some misinformation from somewhere at the very least, and at the worst that they will have been subjected to some behaviour from a fellow child or adult that they didn't like but didn't understand. Children need to be taught the basics about sex and more importantly about personal space and inappropriate touching right from when they can understand a full sentence. Of course it has to be done in an age-appropriate way with the right level of language and not with the aim of scaring the child but with the aim of letting them know that they have the right to say no to any form of contact that they're not happy with and that they don't have to be "polite" about it.

On that note, I think it's important not to send young children that their personal space is worth nothing. Of course if a child is in danger or is tantrumming they might need to be bodily moved against their will. What I object to is a child being lifted off their feet for a cuddle or kiss they don't want. A child should be asked for a cuddle, not just grabbed and squeezed whether they want it or not.

On a more complex level attitudes towards women and sexuality need to change drastically. In spite of our now "liberal" attitude towards sex, underlying it all there is still the "slut" mentality. There is still the idea that if a woman is drunk, wearing skimpy clothes, walking alone etc she is "asking" to be raped - this idea even surfaced in this thread ffs. Women themselves need to realise that they never ever deserve to be assaulted in any way no matter what their behaviour. That will take a long time to come about because at the moment men are the still the "people" - the ones who can live as they like without questions and women are the secondary adjuncts who need to conform to the world men want.

Sorry that should say "it's important not to send young children the message that their personal space is worth nothing."

I'm afraid this is only going to get worse with the gradual dumbing down of pornography in our society, 50% of which is viewed by under 18 boys.

There are plenty of articles on the net that explain how the viewing of pornography changes how men think of women and sex - how women simply become objects to be used...it is frightening, and according to a councillor friend of mine, is an epidemic waiting to happen. He said the amount of men visiting him for porn addiction alone has increased 300% in 10 years, and is now the most common sexual problem he deals with. It leads them down paths of infidelity within marriage, and to prostitution use, which is now becoming normalised behaviour on stag do's and trips away, and is far more prevalent than any of us would want to believe. As worrying is the fact that it destroys the young men's ability to make love to a woman without seeing her as an object for his own satisfaction, rather than a partner in love making. It basically changes the way they have sex, and it is very very difficult to reverse.

By allowing the red top papers to publish photo's of semi naked young women, we are starting this problem early, as they are on most kitchen tables most days. They teach young boys (who see their fathers sneaking a look whilst mum is out of the room) that it is okay for old(er) men to ogle very young women, and it teaches embarrassed young girls that they are only there as eye candy for men (including brothers / fathers / uncles).

Sadly, society is turning our boys into men who treat women this way because they think it's normal - every red top paper, every advert with semi naked females, every pop video, every accessible free Internet porn site is telling our boys that girls are there for their titillation and pleasure, and the lines of normal sexual behaviour are getting blurred beyond distinction.

I am not a feminist by the way, just a normal worried mother (who reads to much, and has asked questions of her professional friends based on what she has read, and is horrified by the answers), wondering how best to send her dc's into this world :(

My mother always told me growing up that women "brought it on themselves" if they got raped. I think I was in my early 30s before I actually really got it and understood that men rape because they want to, not because they can't help themselves. And certainly not because women 'ask' for it.

My mother also told me that I would end up having sex with men I didn't want to have sex with and that "all women do at some point" and that I would have to have sex with a man I did have sex with (e.g. partner) at a time I didn't want to because "all women do at some point".

When I was sexually assaulted by my sports instructor when I was 10 she didn't believe me and said "loads of kids go to him, that wouldn't happen". It was only when another child's mum phoned up and ask her if she'd had any concerns and told my mother what her daughter had said that she finally believed me. She didn't do anything though. Or apologise to me. She just said something along the lines of "Well Samantha's mum said the same so you don't have to go again".

When I was 18 I was out on a double date with my friend and her boyfriend and his friend who I'd never met. My friend and her boyfriend just disappeared (went to the bar together and just didn't come back!) and I left. The other lad dragged me behind the pub and tried to 'force himself' on me. I got away from him but it was nasty. I told my mother and her response was "well what did you expect to happen?" Well not fucking that!

My friend's dad pinched my bum when I was 15.

My mum's partner told me that he wanted to look at my tits to see who had the nicer boobs - me or my mum. Un-fucking-believably my mother thought this was funny and couldn't see the problem.

There are others. Nothing more serious. But just lots of low level stuff.

When I was in my 20s and going out to clubs. I just accepted I'd have my arse/tits grabbed by random men in clubs. I didn't see it as a problem at the time. But largely because I was of the belief/opinion that women were there for the taking and that if was just an 'occupational hazard' of being born a girl and that by being over 18 and out in a nightclub I was 'asking for it.'.

I've got a son and a daughter. I hope I do a better job.

Folk, it's just a pet theory of mine, and could be bollocks but I do think a lot of women who have had scary encounters like your were brought up by people like your mother. I think rapists/attackers do know how to seek out the women who have been given harmful messages by their parents and whose boundaries aren't as strong as those whose confidence and self esteem have been bolstered by kind parents.

My so-called mother's attitude to the fact I had been sexually abused when I was a child (I told her when I was 19) was that I should "get over it," and that I was "trying to make her feel guilty." Looking back I know her attitude that I didn't matter as person definitely affected me and definitely led to me getting into dangerous situations. That's not to say I was responsible for what happened, I absolutely wasn't, but if as a young child you're given the subtle message that anyone can do anything to you and no one will really care, it doesn't exactly encourage you to be strong and confident does it?

Tbh, Cailin, I think I agree. Your theory has some very strong legs to it.

I have been reading these and thinking that I am one of the "lucky ones" then quite bizarrely came to mind an experience round the house of an acquaintance of my mother's. I think I must have been about seven. The woman's teenage daughter exposed herself and made me kiss her there I remember not wanting to do it at all. I don't ever remember going to her house again.

My first boyfriend was inappropriately touched by his male boss when he was 16 and on a YTS scheme. It stopped when he told his father who rang the man and threatened him.

It's not just our daughters we need to educate...and not just about men..

Very true Krispy

One of my boyfriends was 'inappropriately propositioned' by his male boss when he was about 19. He didn't ever tell me exactly what happened, but he walked out of there and it definitely had a lasting impact on him.

At 14 a male 'friend' pinned me down on the floor of his living room an stuck his hand up my top and INSULTED me while he was doing it. Felt so ashamed that I didn't tell anyone for years.

The usual getting grabbed in pubs etc.

I find it a struggle to come to terms with the messages I received from the two female influences in my life, it is only really this last three years since having DD that I have begun to understand how damaging they were, so completely agree with you Calina.

My GM was raped by her boss when she was seventeen, she never told anyone, she was also molested by an uncle, as were her three sisters, and they never spoke about it with each other or with their parents.

She told me these things when I was a child, she thought she was protecting me I think, by being a warning, I think that was her intention, but instead it just made me feel it was inevitable, I had already been abused by my uncle at this point, but she was the strongest person I knew and I thought if a man had hurt her... there was no point in telling or fighting or objecting. I just retreated into myself, by this point I already had developed the ability to completely separate myself from my body, I had it drummed into me that men were rapists and that is what they did from my grandmother, who hated all of them, even the one she loved.

My mother was weak willed and manipulative, and certainly not above using her children to get what she wanted, she was beautiful and had a lot of relationships with men who became very involved very quickly... (lots of 'dads') she used to talk about how great sex was, how great men were.

Bearing in mind this was all an influence on a child of 6/7 years old, I think nowadays SS would probably have removed me, but then, unless you were beaten within an inch of your life there was no awareness of emotional abuse.

I worry that I will do the same, I have spoken about this quite in depth in Calinas brilliant childhood abuse support thread (I would encourage anyone who has the need to talk about abuse to read it), I worry about the messages I will give DD being the only female influence in her life at the moment.

I try not to generalise and target men with my resentment and fear, but it is hard, because ever decent man I came across as a younger person turned out to be abusive, it brings me to a half conclusion that many men are decent until offered an opportunity.

But then intellectually I know this is ridiculous, because I have two men in my life who I can honestly say would never do that, ever, my stepfather of 23 years and DD's father, so if they are decent people, there must be more.

It is just so hard to trust :(

"The usual getting grabbed in pubs etc."

This is a perfect example of how this societies attitudes against women is normalised don't you think RT?

I remember a while ago, it may have been on here, a discussion about an article where a woman had prosecuted a man for grabbing her bum when she was out, it had led to him either being put on or threatened with being put on the sex offenders register.

Some of the attitudes were appalling, including the assertion that if you go out you should expect to be groped by strangers, by being female you are expected to be molested and groped. And this is opinions from intelligent, independent and modern women.

How can we expect to be treated better when our expectations are set so low.

Antsy - yes, agree 100%. What bothers me is everyone knows it's not right, but I actually object to it and I have female friends my age (mid-20s) who actually say 'what do you expect in a club?'. It is beyond frustrating.

"In light of this thread I've just had a 'talk' with my 2 eldest dds (14 and 9)."

Well done Ummo . All I got from my mum was about how I should avoid certain situations (walking home alone, getting in a taxi alone, etc. i.e. never go anywhere or do anything!) There was no way I could talk to her about anything sexual, not even periods. So of course I never mentioned any of the flashing/groping etc. to her (all minor stuff compared to some of you thankfully) as there was lurking in the background the idea that it was shameful to talk about sex and that if anything had happened I'd have been partly responsible.

Also, she was never specific about the things that might happen (e.g. "Don't get in a taxi alone because you never know what might happen," or because, "It's not safe." ) I therefore had no clue about the range of stuff that might happen, and none at all about what to do if it did!

There were many posts before mine yesterday and still many more after. It is so awful. I have told DH and he is shocked. A couple of years ago he was at a meeting and the windows of the meeting room overlooked a high school entrance. Anyway, when school finished, the men started letching at girls who must have only been 14 or so. DH said "they're children, some of you have daughters, would you want them talked about in this way!". He was really cross. A couple of them went red/got embarrassed, but the others laughed. It just shows how some men view women, but these were children! If I had a daughter I would get her to attend martial arts, sad, but I would. I am considering it for both my DSs as it is.

Well done to your DH LittleAbruzzenBear.

My DH said the same the other day. He was going to the shop and there was a man walking with his (assumed) daughter, DH said she looked young, about 12,13 and had her school uniform on.

DH saw a man in a van at the lights with his head out of the window iterally licking his lips at her bare legs :( :(

DH wanted to drg him out of the van. I think if it were our DD in about 10 years he would do.

Folk, it's just a pet theory of mine, and could be bollocks but I do think a lot of women who have had scary encounters like your were brought up by people like your mother. I think rapists/attackers do know how to seek out the women who have been given harmful messages by their parents and whose boundaries aren't as strong as those whose confidence and self esteem have been bolstered by kind parents.

Totally agree in my case, DM was a nasty cow.

I didn't feel safe or like i would be believed if i told her.

But in DD's case, i was complacent, believing that i had the DC's so closely protected, and it turned out to be my stepbrother who was the one i should have been watching.

YANBU.

I have had a few slight incidents, although nothing serious.

Both my sisters have had serious incidents and apparently told my mother, who threatened to tell the abuser. I think I was luckily ignored by him because I was cheeky and seen to be 'clever'.