to be a little shocked at the laissez faire attitude to drugs on here?

[ThatVikRinA22]

at risk of sounding like your mum and pulling a cats bum face

im a bit shocked. Ive seen reference to drugs and recreational drug use on here before, and while i love the diversity of mn, im always quite shocked at what seems to be a majority? view that recreational drugs are just part of life, that its ok because 'professionals' do it too, that its not the same to be seen to use cocaine at the weekend as it is to be a shoplifter or prostitute with an addiction to herioin....

is it just that no one sees the murkier side of drug use?

i suppose i see the darker side because of what i do for a living, but even before that, i would never have been tempted to try. There are the wider issues with production, trafficking, crime, gangs, and the environmental issues in production
just one such story here

my brother was a heroin addict, and i lost my sister to drugs, one way or another, i believe drug use contributed to her death. Seriously, most the crime i deal with is in some way drug related. Two weeks ago i was involved in an attempted murder over cocaine and cannabis supply.

i am not some rabid campaigner, but this is mumsnet - are most of us parents? i find it odd that people can froth about the small stuff, that people get pilloried for some really bizarre stuff on here while threads about drug use get a fairly "meh" response. (yes its a thread inspired by the coke using teachers assistant....)

why is that? genuinely interested to explore why coke use is seen as ok, and wonder what is not ok?

if its ok for the TA to use coke at the weekend, is it ok for them to smoke crack? or use heroin? doctors were mentioned on the last thread....would you undergo an operation knowing your doctor or surgeon had used coke? or smoked cannabis?

if its just part of life, where would you draw the line?
do people not realise what it takes to get that gram of coke at the pub at the weekend?

Dahlen actually heroin and diamorphine are exactly the same.

Cutting and cleanliness are completely separate issues, and won't be sorted unless legalised.

Mostly, the side effects of heroin are constipation and addiction. I believe Germany says you can treat heroin addicts by prescribing... diamorphine. Clean, controlled.

Also, I would like to thank everyone on the thread for a very stimulating discussion, but I need to tend to some real life for a bit.
Thanks again!

And for me, the law does not determine my moral compass. It guides it, but I do not substitute it for my own thinking and judgement.

I think that's a fair comment. The law has changed over time to reflect changing attitudes and values, and rather embodies the notion that morality is relative, so I'd agree with you wholeheartedly on that one.

I wouldn't actually have a problem with drugs being legalised. And ethically speaking I am very much in keeping with your opinion that people should have autonomy over their own bodies and that's it a basic human right to do with it what you want even if that's abusive.

I guess where we differ is that while you are looking to a situation that you'd like to see created, I look at the situation as it is now. And as it is now, I can only conclude that illegal drugs and the trade that accompany them, are responsible for a lot of human misery and therefore I want no part of it and think less of people who do.

Bah, one more comment! (couldn't resist looking)

Dahlen if that is the only place you think we differ, then we do not differ really at all.

Because I do not just look ahead to the future. I do look at the here and now, which is one of the reasons I am not currently a drug user.

But no, I do not believe in maintaining the status quo, and where I strongly believe something should change, I speak about it where I can.

I am in favour of complete decriminalisation of all drugs.

self-harm - if that's what it is - should not be punished with jail sentences.

lots of people on here drink.
I drink myself, and don't see anything wrong in it.
I think alchoholism is terribly damaging to many families - but not all drinking is alcoholism.

i think that pretty much defines my opinion on drugs.
lots of people take drugs.
i don't see anything morally wrong in it.
drug abuse can be damaging to individuals and their families, yet not all drug use is abusive.

I have never taken drugs. Even if I'd ever wanted to, I have health problems that mean that most of the gack would kill me (didn't find out until late 20's, so glad I never tried!).

I find the company of drug users tedious in the extreme. There are places I don't go to- clubs etc, because of the stupid gurning 'phet heads' and MDMA users irritating, childish antics. Coke heads think they are great, but they are boring, talking drivel and chomping and twitching. Don't get me started on bag heads, and their whinning self pity (and I don't take the view that they should be pitied. I have no sympathy for them, it was their choice. I understand the argument that they might have had bad experiences in the past, but so have I and lots of other people and we haven't taken the self pity route. Heroin takes away dignity, health, hell- pretty much everything. I will not be so cruel to a person in the grip of it to take away another thing- the responsibility for their own lives and actions- and reduce them to a pathetic victim.)

DorisBoltneck

I have never taken drugs.

Fine, that's laudable. I guess you mean illegal drugs?
Does mean that you're dependent on what you've been told are the effects of drugs rather than experiencing any of them. We're on the same page as far as whizz/coke/heroin.

Heroin takes away dignity, health, hell- pretty much everything.

Develop this a little?
What drug actions cause this?

Since this is a regularly prescribed product in the NHS, I'm unsure whether you speak of the drug, or the consequences of its illegality?

Lol, I started on of those threads, and I was amazed at how many people seem to think that people's functioning is not impaired by taking class A drugs at the weekend.

Just for the record, I have actually known people with children who take drugs, and to be honest, I did think it affected their parenting and I chose not to carry on socialising with them. Tbh the were unsavoury characters and I'm sure that 'normal' parents who like to dabble are sensible enough to do it disreetly, so I probably don't know about it!

pfffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttt

< keels over >

Obviously being a teacher who enjoys as puff at the weekend isn't the same as an airline pilot dropping some acid before he embarks upon his transatlantic flight.

The only people I have met who openly take drugs and have kids and/or a 'respectable' job are idiots. Not for taking drugs, but being so open about it. Nevermind pictures posted on Facebook with their eyes like saucers. There's issues with Social Services, employers and the law. Some people are vindictive and might drop them in it.

I think , at least in terms of Cannabis that the law should change to allow people to grow their own plants, possibly a maximum of two. And then increase the punishment for dealing. As is the case in Switzerland I believe.

Modern skunk is just too powerful. Often sprayed with sugar water to increase the weight. And God knows what people mix into hash.

isn't the same as an airline pilot dropping some acid before he embarks upon his transatlantic flight

I knew two men who thought they'd take 'a little bit' of LSD before their shifts as pizza chefs in a well known pizza restaurant chain. It didn't end well.

LesleyPumpshaft - you see, people boast about drug taking in a way they would never do with anything else. They want to appear 'cool' and rebellious which is what led me to state that some people who say they have taken drugs, actually haven't but they want to fit in with the rest, to be seen as interesting. Like the party photos posted on Facebook, they care about how they are seen by the rest of society and they want to create this image for themselves. Whilst drug taking still has an air of glamour and danger about it, it will appeal.

And look at that booootiful swirl on my keyboard ~ have you ever seen anything so incredibly beautiful? Oh look, it's floating!

"The pizza just spoke to me! It's burning! It's burning, no pizza, I will save you! SAVE THE PIZZA!"

"Quick take off your clothes and smother the flames of the evil oven!"

"Look everyone, look I saved the talking pizza! WHY ARE YOU EATING ITS FRIENDS????"

That the kind of ending your story had nappies?

That the kind of ending your story had nappies?

Not far off. The pizza spinning thing didn't really work for them unsurprisingly , I think that reduced them to hysterical laughter, then they were visually overwhelmed with all the different ingredients. Followed by realization and panic when the first orders came in.

I think the management sussed pretty early on that all was not well and sent them both home.

OneMoreChap Yes I'm talking about illegal drugs- thats the context here, so I presumed it went without saying. I'm not in the least bit interested in the 'experience' of taking the rubbish and haven't claimed to have any knowlegde about the physical effects. I'm talking about the effects it has on me, which I'm lucky enough to have viewed as a spectator.

I'm not interested in obfuscation and pointless debates about legalisation. When I say that heroin takes away dignity, health etc, I mean just that. I have know three junkies (so far, hopefully there will be no more!) The loss of dignity might be in stealing, selling your body, treating you're loved ones like dirt. The loss of health- vein damage, infections, hep C and HIV. Junkies are usually pretty miserable people, and misery loves company, they are all too happy to drag others down with them, helping 'new comers' to inject, and generously sharing their equiptment. All human decency gone at that point.

Legalise it all and the problems will remain, certainly with the harder drugs. People will get addicted, drugs will still be expensive, addicts will still lose jobs and be unable to fund the habit and round it will go. HIV can still be passed by sharing a rig to shoot up hospital grade diamorphine.

Rhubarb, why would people lie about taking drugs? Most people haven't taken drugs because they think it's a bad idea. If a person actually think's it's a good idea, and that it's "cool", why would that person not have taken drugs? Surely they would have taken them, as there would be no reason for them not to? Just can't imagine there are people who - weirdly - think drug taking is cool but haven't actually taken drugs? Seems a bit strange to me!

apachepony - for the same reasons people lie about their social lives and lie about having Irish ancestory or lie about how many sexual partners they have. To make themselves appear more interesting.

There have been many studies on why people exaggerate and inventing an interesting past is akin to exaggeration for some. We all know how people oftne reinvent themselves on Facebook and internet forums like this one. Lying about drug taking is no different to that.

Unfortunately drug taking still exudes a certain amount of glamour and danger. Just look at the other thread on drugs (earlier posts) to see how many posters give examples of professional, middle class people doing drugs. They don't give examples of your tragic cases because doing drugs is now seen as more of a middle class thing. You must be successful if you can afford drugs. It also hints at an exciting past, a life lived on the edge.

Just as people exaggerate about how many sexual encounters they've had or make out that they are not virgins when they are, others will say that they have or do take drugs when they don't.

Well a middle class professional coke user still exhibits the typical obnoxious coke head mentality. Having a nice house, nice car and money doesn't make them better people.

*DorisBoltneck
I'm not interested in obfuscation and pointless debates about legalisation. When I say that heroin takes away dignity, health etc, I mean just that. I have know three junkies (so far, hopefully there will be no more!) The loss of dignity might be in stealing, selling your body, treating you're loved ones like dirt. The loss of health- vein damage, infections, hep C and HIV. Junkies are usually pretty miserable people, and misery loves company, they are all too happy to drag others down with them, helping 'new comers' to inject, and generously sharing their equiptment. All human decency gone at that point.

So, as I thought, rock-all to do with the drug itself.
More to do with its illegality. [stealing/selling your body etc.)

Legalise it all and the problems will remain, certainly with the harder drugs.

Conjecture.

People will get addicted,

as they are with alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs...

drugs will still be expensive, addicts will still lose jobs and be unable to fund the habit and round it will go.

Why expensive? Alcoholics etc lose jobs all the time. Their problem, to put it bluntly.

HIV can still be passed by sharing a rig to shoot up hospital grade diamorphine. Yep, and by unsafe sex, too.

OneMoreChap Did I say it was anything to do with the drug itself? No. I have stated my point of view very clearly.

I'm not interested in the round and round, ifs and buts of it all. Most things said on here are conjecture, thats what it's all about, just the opinions of other people, and I suspect that the people who have had their lives blighted by drug users will have a very different view of the subject than those who have the luxury of viewing it as an interesting moral debate.

Picking apart someones posts, then using randon statements out of context is not useful and rather petty. Someone I know has contracted HIV from drug use, a hideous thing for the people that love that person and a situation that will not be stopped by legalising drugs. That is my point. I'm not interested in a discussion of safe sex!

Sorry to be picky DorisBoltneck

I say that heroin takes away dignity, health etc, I mean just that. is the drug itself.

That's not addiction, crime etc...

I'm sorry one of your acquaintances/friends picked up HIV from drug use. I don't see, necessarily, why that would happen with legalised drugs.

You say, I'm not interested in a discussion of safe sex and I'd say that picking up HIV from a sexual encounter is a hideous thing for the people that love that person ...

We disagree.

I've seen drug enforcement in some 15 countries; the approach we, the US, Mexico, Thailand are adopting... do you think it's working? If not, what else should we try? Singapore's approach?

OneMoreChap I just think it's rude to try and degrade another persons experiences for the sake of an argument.

I think the answer to all drug problems is very, very simple. Take responsibility for your own actions and don't take drugs.

Another thing I'd forgotten about that makes me want to be ill when it comes to drugs, is the fact that a great many of them have probably been up someones arse at one time or another.

And then people are happily smoking, injecting, swallowing it. If that doesn't rob you of your dignity, there is really no hope for you!

That really puts the legal vs illegal drug debate in its place. I can't remember the last time the pharmacist dispensed my granny's heart pills from his bottom.
No doubt someone will be along soon to say they know loads of pharmacists who take loads of illegals and do this on a regular basis