to be a little shocked at the laissez faire attitude to drugs on here?

[ThatVikRinA22]

at risk of sounding like your mum and pulling a cats bum face

im a bit shocked. Ive seen reference to drugs and recreational drug use on here before, and while i love the diversity of mn, im always quite shocked at what seems to be a majority? view that recreational drugs are just part of life, that its ok because 'professionals' do it too, that its not the same to be seen to use cocaine at the weekend as it is to be a shoplifter or prostitute with an addiction to herioin....

is it just that no one sees the murkier side of drug use?

i suppose i see the darker side because of what i do for a living, but even before that, i would never have been tempted to try. There are the wider issues with production, trafficking, crime, gangs, and the environmental issues in production
just one such story here

my brother was a heroin addict, and i lost my sister to drugs, one way or another, i believe drug use contributed to her death. Seriously, most the crime i deal with is in some way drug related. Two weeks ago i was involved in an attempted murder over cocaine and cannabis supply.

i am not some rabid campaigner, but this is mumsnet - are most of us parents? i find it odd that people can froth about the small stuff, that people get pilloried for some really bizarre stuff on here while threads about drug use get a fairly "meh" response. (yes its a thread inspired by the coke using teachers assistant....)

why is that? genuinely interested to explore why coke use is seen as ok, and wonder what is not ok?

if its ok for the TA to use coke at the weekend, is it ok for them to smoke crack? or use heroin? doctors were mentioned on the last thread....would you undergo an operation knowing your doctor or surgeon had used coke? or smoked cannabis?

if its just part of life, where would you draw the line?
do people not realise what it takes to get that gram of coke at the pub at the weekend?

raggybaggy What you describe is a perfect example of what happens when drugs are used irresponsibly. And I have also seen it. I am as against it as you are, and I find it as disturbing as when I see people vomitting and urinating outside pubs, and dying in hospitals from alcohol.

The end result of misuse of anything is usually very tragic.

ds1 had a group of ten he hung around with in 1st year of secondary (at 12). Of those, one is in a secure mental health unit, two are homeless, one was pregnant at 15 and is only now coming out of it, two are alcoholics living in a squat and two are dead, one in a car accident, one by suicide (while stoned, when he was only just 15).

Cannabis destroyed them. Only one stayed in school until 18. And they were bright, happy, sociable kids, all the boys were on the school rugby team, the girls were popular; all came from "middle class" backgrounds.

My son has had episodes of psychosis, has smashed up the house, beaten up us and his siblings, run away, stolen, dealt - you name it. He is probably now bipolar, though seems to be improving a bit and has recently (touch wood) started a college course.

Cannabis is the biggest problem with young teenagers in Dublin, the biggest cause of early school leaving, and one of the biggest causes of teenage mental health problems, not to mention drug driving and suicide.

But when I say that here I am laughed out of it, belittled and told I am a control freak, and cannabis is a harmless non-addictive drug, and it's their own fault for taking it.

am i truly in the minority here?
if i am then fine. but if im not, say. do most people on MN condone drug use?
is it just becuase its AIBU that people do not feel able to stand up and be counted?

if im wrong i will glady say IABU. but am i?

meh. Half the population seems to be on anti-depressants, there are drugs to make you eat less, drugs to give old men a stiff willy, state-sanctioned drugs injected into our daughters at school, 'wine o'clock' seems to be normal and amusing mum behaviour, women going under the knife to have smaller/bigger breasts or a younger and more desirable face......maybe that's why we can't get too agitated about the 'bad' drugs.....

Sadly, vicar, those of us with direct experience of living with addicts (especially if those addicts are our own children) get abused and belittled when we try to post about it on here.

We get none of the sympathy that people living with alcoholics get.

Because our relatives are "choosing" to "abuse" and it is therefore all their fault. And ours (as parents) for allowing them to do so. I have seen it too many times, both here and in real life.

It is hurtful and unfair, but just you wait. Give it 5 minutes and I'll be told that cannabis isn't addictive.

agree with maryZ tho, strong cannabis does destroy lives

Well its difficult to tell if people aren't standing up and being counted because to know about them they'd have to stand up and be counted.

However I personally have never actually met anyone who is ardently against drugs. Yes I've experienced it on mn and seen a few on the tv or radio but generally of all the people I've encountered throughout my life, and I'm particularly thinking about those I meet working in the industry I do where drug use can be prevalent, the majority are indifferent to the issue.

I've known only a handful of people who were very pro-drugs but that was normally because they were on them at the time, and I've known quite a few people who don't participate but aren't bothered by drug taking.

Obviously this is all anecdotal, as are most of the posts on this thread and can't really prove anything but thats my experience over maybe a couple of thousand people.

oh mary im so sorry.

but you are right.

the "meh" on this page proves it. people dont give a shit. i hope they dont have to deal with it in their own children, their own families. but it would give them an insight that they dont yet have, cant have, to have such attitudes to drug addiction and drug abuse.

there is so much more to this story than the drug addict themselves.

Vicar I don't think you are being unreasonable.

When it comes to such an incendiary topic as drugs you are going to get strongly opposing views.

I just think that the 'they're illegal and that's that' attitude is not a very practical one to have. They are illegal but many many people still use them.

Clearly there are people on here who have have had their own lives horribly scarred by the drug use of others.

I am glad you posted because it's lead to some genuinely interesting, well thought out arguments and intelligent debate. Not always a given on MN!

You have never met anyone who is ardently against drugs? Really? Do you know anyone who either has or works with teenagers?

MaryZed I for one offer my empathy with you.

Drugs are dangerous.

Some people die because they abuse them. Some people die because they use them in the knowledge they are taking a risk (and they lose). Some people die because they do not truly know or care about the risks.

IMHO, this does not make the drugs bad (just dangerous). And I also attach no moral judgement to the people who die because of using them. Those people have responsibility for their actions. But that does not mean they deserved what they got, and it does not mean their death is not utterly tragic... any more than a motorcycle rider who gets killed on the road is at fault for 'being a motorcycle rider'.

Life is very risky. Drugs in particular are very dangerous. I would like to see that danger managed as well as possible, not hidden and forbidden.

What I don't understand is why people say "yes they are illegal, but people still do it and therefore that's ok".

Drunk driving is illegal, people still do it but no-one thinks it's ok.

Stealing is illegal, people still do it but no-one thinks it's ok.

Driving without insurance is illegal, people still do it but no-one thinks it's ok.

I really don't understand why drug use is different

I work with teenagers.

Not professionally, but I volunteer with a local young mums/disadvantaged teens group.

And to my knowledge no I have never met anyone with those views. Admittedly I don't interrogate the man in the shop or my dcs teachers but its something I've discussed or been aware of through experience quite a lot with colleagues.

I work for a substance misuse team, it is grim, seeing people who have damaged their bodies so much becuase of the shit they put in them, it's not just the drugs but the risks of other diseases that come with the taking unless you are really, really careful.

Wow, I'm genuinely amazed.

Because anyone I have come into contact with who works with teenagers where I live (and that's a lot of people, because I have three teenagers who do a lot of different things) is really concerned about drug use, and is very strongly against drugs.

Maybe you live in an area where there are no teenage addicts, though I struggle to imagine where such an area could be.

brother has hepc .....underwent chemo. so did his wife. ex now. that bodes well eh?

it that seen as glamorous? drugs are not illegal for no good reason....yet people on here seem to think its just a choice?

MaryZed Its to do with morality.

The things you all listed are considered immoral for the 'personal freedom vs societal harm' cost vs benefit ratio.

As in, the restriction on personal freedom is worth the benefit to society, and most people agree on that... so all those things are considered morally 'wrong'.

Drugs do not fall so neatly into that camp, because while they are undeniably dangerous, and can have devastating effects, that is not to say they cannot be used in a very positive way by adults who lead long productive and responsible lives.

The larger effects on society are also hotly under debate, and many (not all) of the negative impact is related to the criminality.

Sorry, that should have been 'much', not 'many'.

and many (not all) of the negative impact is related to the criminality
with cannabis though, it's not that,it's the headfuckery of new strains, stronger by the year.

All things being equal, the state should have no say in what adults do to themselves. But all things aren't equal and drugs are not produced in a vacuum.

The end to end supply chain of just about every illegal drug is a step by step chain of unremitting human misery and suffering - usually inflicted by men on women. From cultivation to production to trafficking, every step is without exception one of violence, pain and misery. Legalisation (or decriminalisation) would not change this.

And is before we take in to the account the environmental devastation that (for example) coca production creates, the swathes of rain forest destroyed through its cultivation and the damage to the environment by the carefree disposal of a variety of very nasty chemicals involved in its production. According to the UN Cocaine production causes more environmental damage than mining.

Someone who still chooses to indulge in a little bit of class A at the weekend, despite knowing all this is frankly a complete cunt.

well im getting loads of PMs about this - people just darent post against the majority view.

how sad that on a parenting website people feel unable to say they are against drug use.

i think this is a huge wake up call for me.

Scaredbutdoingit - what is the difference between using and abusing illegal drugs?

Either you take it or you don't. And when you take it, even if you only take it once (does that count as abuse?), you never know what might happen to you.

I live in Hackney.

the biggest concern is poverty, gangs and violence, which can link to drugs but its more about the younger kids getting hold of them or selling them. The majority of the people I work with when I volunteer are, based on discussions we've had not anti drugs, they are anti children using drugs which is something I agree with and is a slightly different issue to the one raised on this thread.

It's because those of us who are personally involved have been hurt too often by the simplistic, dismissive, and frankly ignorant abuse we get for daring to suggest that drugs are in any way bad.

It's all to do with free choice, apparently.

"The restriction on personal freedom is worth the benefit to society, and most people agree on that... so all those things are considered morally 'wrong'" - fair enough. And that is the reason I believe using drugs is morally wrong. The production of most drugs causes harm far beyond the harm done to the end user. But the harm done to society due to drug use (stealing, violence, drug gangs etc) surely makes using such drugs an immoral act in itself.

The chain of supply for almost everything is utterly fucked up!

You cannot criticise where drugs come from without examining where your clothes come from, where your food comes from, because I promise you you will not like what you find. The people with wealth are trampling all over the people with little, and unfortunately you and I (and almost everyone in a 'western' country falls into the wealth camp).

raggybaggy The difference between use and abuse is:

a) motivation - what are the reasons behind taking it in the first place, and

b) information - does the person have enough knowledge about what the actual risks/benefits are and how to balance these

c) responsibility - do they care about the effect on themselves and others enough to minimise the risks and maximise the benefits?