to not want school to teach my kids how to speak in the way the teachers wants?

[bellabreeze]

Having irish accents the teacher of some of my kids has told me they would do little speech classes so they speak different.. its not the accent but its things like saying 'ting' not 'thing' and dat not that and stuff like that really.. I think.. I don't think it is important enough to waste time doing? But maybe I am wrong?

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: accents are about identity. The OP's children will modify their accents if/when they want to modify their identities. The teacher doesn't need to teach them to say 'th': they'll do it all by themselves if they ever feel they need to."

Personal motivation to belong to a group is only one function of accents.

It is perfectly reasonable for the educational establishment to teach widely accepted social norms (of accent or anything else) in order to facilitate a child's progress in society in the future. That is largely what education systems are about.

Yes, Rebecca, and saying "dis" and "dat" is part of a type of Irish accent, so the OP's assertion is correct. What you said in your post was "I find it patronising to say Irish people can't pronounce th," which was something you thought up all on your own seeing as no one on the thread actually said it.

Damson, do you make your Dd say the r in farm and car too?

(yes, I know, dog with a bone and all that, but it shows that it's not about how the word is spelt)

But social norms change and can be challenged, Bonsoir. There never used to be any non-RP accents on the BBC, now there are. The social norm used to be that having children outside marriage was shameful, that's no more. The question is whether the education system should pander to prejudice.

"It is perfectly reasonable for the educational establishment to teach widely accepted social norms (of accent or anything else) in order to facilitate a child's progress in society in the future. That is largely what education systems are about."

To an extent I agree with you, but I think there has to be definite limit on the types of social norms the educational system teaches. Once upon a time it was fine for schools to teach that homosexuality was wrong, and that left handers were "wrong" and needed learn how to use their right hands. Schools should teach a child how to conduct themselves in a group situation, how to listen in class and be kind and considerate to others. Beyond that controlling the way a child speaks (apart from forbidding swearing and rude language) needs to be geared towards rectifying genuine problems with their speech rather than "teaching social norms" because the social norms around accent and dialect are complicated and it's not a simple matter of choosing the "right" social norm and teaching that - what's "right" and "wrong" isn't clear in that situation.

flow4 Totally agree with your post, accents modify naturally when people want them to. I'm another "native RP" with a sort of alternative screechy Sarf London register for being loudly pissed off in public, and I also developed a few Mancunianisms when I lived in the NW.

Hanging on to my long "a" though.

I taught kids with really strong local accents and sometimes their spelling was dreadful, but just because they didn't know the "correct"(!) way to pronounce the word. I found making them aware of the pronunciation helped but never expected them to talk that way in class (despite pressure from head teachers). Instead, we celebrated local dialect, writing songs and poems using it. During writing and spelling lessons I expected proper spellings but giving the kids a chance to explore and enjoy their local dialect was really popular and it made them feel valued for who they actually are. Any chance your kids teacher could do this too?

I speak cut-glass RP when talking to my university lecturers or work colleagues. Because I lived in the Smoke for 25 years I can also do a screechy Norf Laarndon scary mum voice when necessary ("Oi, you messin wiv my kid?!!!"), and when talking to my neighbours I revert to the local Somerset burr, just as I did at school whenever I wanted to avoid being beaten up for being a 'snob'.

Children very quickly learn to adapt their accents to a particular situation, just as they learn to vary their vocabulary according to whether they are talking to grandparents or schoolfriends. Giving them the tools for doing so is NOT a reflection on their native accent. That's like suggesting it's unpatriotic to learn a foreign language.

habbibu - teaching a child a social norm such that he can use it if that is useful to him is not the same thing as imposing a social norm upon him.

"The question is whether the education system should pander to prejudice."

Or, whether the education system should pander to incorrect pronunciation in the name of political correctness.

If the education system is not transformational (ie leaves children in the same state they are when left with their families) there isn't much point to it.

Or, the question is, whether the education system should educate people who think there is such a thing as 'incorrect pronunciation' when they are discussing regional accents.

I thought this education had been mostly achieved years ago, but evidently not.

It is just not correct to pronounce "th" as "d".

And it is not likely to be anytime soon, although it may be common in certain places for whatever reason.

The Greeks pronounce "d" as "th"

Really, cote.

Gosh, I'm suddenly convinced now you make this point, with no evidence to back it up, in a way I really wasn't when it was made earlier in the thread by similarly ignorant people. Thanks.

Let's blame the Greeks, hully.

Oh let's.

No wonder the country's gone to the skylous

Indeed.

I also blame their fancy and delicious yoghurt for the fact I'm two stone heavier than I used to be. Nowt to do with snickers bars, you understand.

LapsedPacifist My point (and I think also flow's point) was that my accent has altered naturally over the years without me even thinking about it). Nobody "gave me the tools to do so". And I would have been right stubborn about it if they had.

Gah, stray bracket! Get it away!

546 posts and there are still white middle class middle englanders banging on about there being only one correct way to say things: theirs.

Shocker.

In fact thinking about it, me spending time in Manchester is a good example of why this kind of thing isn't on. Nobody took me aside aged eight and said "You might spend a few years in the North West in your late twenties so we'd better teach you to soften up the "t" on the end of words a bit to make you sound less like an arsey southerner." They had no idea what contexts I might find myself in, or how I'd want to respond to them. But whatever context I find myself in, there have been (quite slight) natural shifts in my accent, and it's something you can only really do for yourself as you find appropriate. Some people, on moving to a new area, make a conscious effort to retain their old accent, and that is their choice too.

Though, I am a white middle class Englander. We're not all wankers.

Not at all, just the ones banging on in the manner described!

Côte d'Azur and I are, however, not white middle-class middle Englanders.