to think it is stupid to tell children they mustn't lie?

[PostBellumBugsy]

First of all, hands up who never lies?

I'm struggling with this at the moment, as DS is autistic spectrum, so I have to explain the rules of social engagement to him, in a way I certainly don't to DD & I don't think most people have to with children who aren't AS.
He can be brutally honest sometimes in a way that is not good. Example: to one of DD's friends "You are really pretty but your hair looks snarly today. You should try brushing it." Gah!!!! Said entirely without malice to one of DD's friends he likes.

He is in most instances horribly honest & black & white & it really pisses people off.

He also lies very badly & stupidly on occasions. We're having a picnic, he wanders off & within my sight throws half his pork pie into the long grass. When he returns I ask him (not in a cross way) why he threw his pork pie away. He immediately says "No, I didn't". Obviously, I don't buy it. He has done this a few times recently about really small stupid things - where there was no reason to lie & it was painfully obvious to anyone (other than him) that he'd be caught out. So rather than just keep telling him off. I thought it was about time to have a chat about truth, evasion, white lies & lies.

Any thoughts? He is nearly 13 btw, if that helps.

YABU

It's not "stupid" to tell children that they shouldn't lie. That's a good general principle.

But it is important (especially for children with SN) to talk about it in more detail as they get older and are capable of understanding the difference between lying and not-saying-every-true-thing-that-comes-into-your-head.

Well how is it 'stupid' to tell children not to lie? We have been telling our children this for generations. So we should all stop now..... Because of your son and a pork pie??

Was it the meat he threw? Yuk, I would. Love the pastry but though,that's the best bit.

I think there's lying and there's honesty, both of which can be the wrong thing, bot of which can be the right thing to do.

I prefer the 'If you can't be nice, be queit' - not sure how that would work with your DS though as that requires social judgement also.

It must be very difficult to teach 'the rules' of social interaction, sorry I can't be of more help. Perhaps being very open with your DS's friends may limit any hurt, or explaining that even honesty isn't always accurate?? (the hair thing was his opinion so not strictly correct eg)

I honestly don't know!

My DS is nearly 13 yo.
He doesn't lie as much as fib.
Usually to cover his own back for something he has/hasn't done.
And I can tell when he lies, so it's easy to unpick.

I tell him if he does fib, he needs to have a very good memory.

(Unlike my DD who seems incapable of lies. Straight truth. "That dress doesn't look good on you Mum"
"You've got a spot Mum.It's really noticeable")

Read the Nurtureshock book, OP, it will make great sense to you. Deals with teenage lying especially. Most teenage lying is about protecting relationships; most backchat is because the child actually does respect your authority. Else they would lie instead to get what they want. Good food for thought!!

So your third paragraph - I think that's very common. Example: when I was around that age my DM left the house before me in the morning, and (for some reason) would leave me out a bowl of cereal (minus milk). I was in a ridiculous 'breakfast makes you fat' phase, but I knew I'd get in trouble if I binned the cereal, so I used to pour it out of the window. (I know this tale isn't covering me in glory, bear with). After a few days of this my DM said 'are you pouring your cereal out of the window?' to which I said 'no, not me, must be someone else pouring cereal onto our garden just under our kitchen window.'

So I think that's just something teenagers do - tell daft lies because they know they need to get themselves out of trouble. I think worth having a chat but it's just something that he'll grow out of (or get better at! but that's not usually an issue with AS DCs).

The brutal honesty thing is harder. I'm trying to introduce the idea of 'kind words' but it's not really going in. Working on staying on topic, so whatever the group is talking about, you talk about, is really hard for my DS but I think it will also help with these situations, eg if you're talking about the game you're playing, you don't talk about someone's hair. But it's definitely a toughie.

Ok, another example.

What do you all tell your children about snitching? A number of times, over the last 5 or 6 years, there have been school incidents, where something has happened & the teacher has been trying to get to the bottom of it. Most kids seem to twig that snitching on your fellow classmates is a bad idea & so they all stay silent. DS on the other hand will pipe up and give a factual account of what happened - oblivious of the fact that everyone will then hate him afterwards. Any suggestions for that one?

I have such a hard time getting him to tell the teacher when he gets picked on that I'm just sucking that one up at the moment...

As long as you do not mind when be tells you big dirty whoppers :) Perhaps he doesn't want his pork pie.

Everybody lies. Everybody.

OP its quite common with kids/adults on the spectrum DS is autistic and 18 he can't lie he tries but his face gives him away also brutally honest can be quite embarrassing also can't keep secrets have to watch what we say if he's around he never forgets

I think the problem is that whilst we as parent somewhat disingenuously promote honesty (when we actually mean be honest with ME), children, especially teenagers usually have a peer group to teach them that lying is sometimes appropriate. Which of course, it is.

With some children with ASD, they rely on a trusted adult to teach them the subtleties they are unable to gather from their peers- this puts the parent in a duplicitous position, as they have to act as parent and peer group.

That comes under "Don't get involved unless it's a matter of life & limb", PBB.

Of course I don't want my DS to tell me whoopers. My point is, we all tell lies all the time. As an AS person, DS is never going to intrinsically get when a lie by omission is on balance probably a good thing, which lies really should be told (usually appearance related) & which lies are pointless & stupid & get you into more trouble than if you told the truth & which are seriously bad & harmful.
When my parents gave me the most hideous hand bag I have probably ever set eyes on for Christmas last year - I didn't say "Blardy hell M&D, what possessed you? What made you think I'd ever like something like that? Have you both gone mad? Have you got no taste?" No, of course not. I said thank you very much & when they actually asked me that direct question as to whether I liked it - I told a lie & said yes, it was quite funky!!!!

I sometimes decline things I don't want to do by saying I'm already booked to do something else, rather than say "No, I don't want to go to your coffee morning because I know it will be a bitch fest." etc etc etc.

That's the type of lying that protects relationships; I'm telling ya' PBB, read the Nurtureshock book. For that matter, get your DS to read it. Lying by omission might make sense to him if he reads the relevant chapter of that book.

Thanks lljkk. I think I do understand lying fairly well and I don't think of myself as a bad person for the lies I tell - I only tell them, if I think they are the least bad option & usually so as not to hurt other people.
I'll have a look at the Nurtureshock book to see if it may work for DS. He has really bad dyslexia, so isn't a natural reader at all!

I have a AS son as well - some of the things that he says to complete strangers is so embarrassing! We have tried the "can't say something nice then don't say something", we have tried the "don't be rude" but without a result its one of those things that go with the territory I suppose - sorry op for not having any solutions but you are not alone!

I do not lie.

I dont lie because Im utterly shite at it. My face goes bright red abd I visibly start to panic. Its absolutely pathetic tbh, but there you go.

My mum HATED me lying. She even slapped me round the face once when I was about 11. It might explain my above reaction to it actually!

However, I do not think it is stupid to teach a child not to lie. Not whatsoever.

Good point tethersend! I often feel with DS that I have to act as his "streetwise" mentor. Thank god for DD, as she is better at it than me - not to mention of the right age.
His honesty is such a liability at times. He and DD were messing around on their bikes in our cul de sac last weekend. I was around, clearing stuff out of the garden into the garage, that kind of thing. While I was on one of my trips in to the house, a group of older lads walked through (there is a footpath through to houses behind) and they were smoking. So, DS takes it upon himself to cycle over to them & tell them in his factually accurate way that smoking is really dangerous & will kill them. I heard the shouts of "Fuck off you 4 eyed twat" and went running out & was able to diffuse it all - but I need to get the message through, that this is not what 13 year old boys do - before he gets beaten into a pulp.

I find it a good quality in my DS actually quite an innocent outlook on the world every child/adult is an individual. Although it is still embarrassing

Well how is it 'stupid' to tell children not to lie? We have been telling our children this for generations.

It is stupid because it is itself a lie and hypocritical.

All adults lie. Lying is absolutely essential to social interaction and it is complete hypocrisy to tell children not to do it. In reality, we consider lies to be wrong in some situations but fine in others. It is very difficult for children, especially if on the autistic spectrum, to understand the distinction.

You do though. It's not just outright lying, you lie by omission,, you fudge, you obfuscate. You lie.
If you are a functioning human being, you lie.

Crossed post there if hes going out can be in danger of getting into bother, don't know what to suggest mine doesn't go out after the abuse he received as a young child.

The less you lie the less you need to. For example with a present you hate you should never say it's lovely if asked outright. Chances are they might have a receipt or have been willing to take the risk you hated it. Now you will get a similar gift every year and feel bad they are wasting their money.

On that theme, I really wish I hadn't lied about Father Christmas TBH.

People trust and respect you if you don't lie. I can't stand people who only tell you what they think you want to hear. I like the hard truth even if it hurts because you know where you are.