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Original poster

Crossing over boundaries? I need honest opinions please...

44 replies

codebrown · 12/09/2012 12:33

DD 5 and DS3. Grandfather keeps picking up DD by picking her up between the legs and patting her bottom. In short hands are all over private places during play. Makes DH's blood boil. I didn't think anything of it as I thought it the norm, but realise family has a history of not respecting boundaries/privacy issues while I was growing up, so I actually have no idea what is acceptable. Appreciate that it becomes less appropriate as the child gets older, but where to draw the line? (There is absolutely no sugggestion of sexual abuse I have to stress). Please help me guage what you see as appropriate. It is tearing me apart.

OP posts:
Guiltypleasures001 · 12/09/2012 12:41

HI Code

My thoughts are this, I think you will have to put a stop to this, suggest she is sore down there or something if you feel awkward about insisting right out he stops. but my main thought is if she see's this type of touching as normal from adults including not familyy, then she will not be able to tell the difference and you might not find out, if there is ever god forbid a time when something might need reporting.

I dont want to speculate on what you or your family find normal, does he do it with his forearm or his hand? Either way it needs to stop hun, and soon.

aftereight · 12/09/2012 12:43

It's not necessary to hold/touch a child in those places, is it? If your DH is uncomfortable with it, then please have a word with your dad and ask him to stop. Explain that others could misconstrue his actions. If he listens to you, great, and if not you can take steps to make sure he does stop touching your DD like this.

mamamibbo · 12/09/2012 12:46

im trying to think of how you would pick a child up that way, usually you pick them up under the arms?

Proudnscary · 12/09/2012 12:47

It is NOT appropriate.

Trust your instincts.

I understand that you have different, skewed boundaries and that is not your fault.

But you have to protect your child.

If you think anyone, family member or anyone at all, is behaving inappropriately then that person cannot be around your child.

What does your dh want to do about it - his 'blood boiling' is not helping your dd or you.

Original poster
codebrown · 12/09/2012 12:47

@Guilty pleasures. Thank you. Yes, his hand. I had also had the thought about learning what is appropriate etc from experience. Just another battle I have to take on I suppose :-( Will be interested to see if anyone actually does think it is okay, I am guessing not. I know I will get the response that I am being ridiculous but I know he will toe the line if I make an issue out of it.

OP posts:
WilsonFrickett · 12/09/2012 12:49

Does he pick up both children in the same way?

TheEnthusiasticTroll · 12/09/2012 12:52

I can see how it would be harmless and maybe not unusual to pick an infant up like this say under 2 with a padded nappy. But it seems a bit odd to do this to a 5 year old. I think your Dh is correct to want a stop to this, but he needs to stop his blood boiling and just say to grandfather. Please do not pick dd up like that, it doesnt seem appropriate or nessesary to place your hands between her legs like that.

WelshMaenad · 12/09/2012 12:53

Not appropriate. I do not pick my six year old up that way, never have. It is not necessary, and would make me deeply uncomfortable and unhappy.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 12/09/2012 13:04

I can remember an uncle picking me up with an arm between the legs when I was little, so that my underarms or shoulders would be on his other arm and I would be across his body. He only used to do it when he was winding me up though and was pretending he was going to throw me into the sea. I don't see that as inappropriate, at least not in a sexual, private area type way. But that was his arm, not his hand that woudo be touching the certain area.

It doesn't have to be inappropriate, but if this is making either parent uncomfortable, then it should stop. It's that simple.

I would gently talk to him about it and say that you are teaching her about private areas and when it is ok and when it isn't ok for someone to touch her there, and that you woudo prefer it if he could stop so as to make the lesson easier for her so ahe won't get confused. There is an NSPCC campaign going on round many schools at the moment about abuse, maybe you could link it to that.

Original poster
codebrown · 12/09/2012 13:11

DH isn't happy but removes himself from the situation as he sees me struggling in the middle and doesn'[t want to make it worse for me. He thinks that it is being done to exert control over him. I disagree though as I think it is just that my dad has weird ideas of what is okay and not okay and when I challenge him he will get huffy and say I am being over the top and she is just a child etc. There is always a reason to leave things in the status quo, but as no-one thinks I am over-reacting yet I think I need to do something. Question is what? Email is easier as they can moderate their response to me instead of getting insulting down the phone or face to face. Or do I wait until it happens again, but then the discussion has to come out in front of the children which I don't like the thought of. Plus we don't see them that often so I will be fretting all the while.

OP posts:
KittenCamile · 12/09/2012 13:13

We sometimes pick DSD up like this (well under her bottom, not the patting) but that's because she has hyper mobility and picking her up under her arms could do her damage. She is 3 though and as she is getting bigger its getting better to pick her up by her waist.

That is the only reason though other wise I would say under the arms is much better and wouldn't look weird to anyone

AdoraBell · 12/09/2012 13:15

I think it's inappropriate and the problem with learning through experience is that she could learn to expect and allow adults in general to touch her in this way unless you teach her, now, that it is not appropriate. That means telling grandad to stop doing it and making sure he respects the boundary.

TheEnthusiasticTroll · 12/09/2012 13:15

I would wait until it happens and just take the same hard line responce, dont hold her like that. if he pushes yopu on why just say she is a little girl its not comfertable for her to have your hands between her legs. end of. if he makes an issue infront of the dcs tell him to stop pushing it and deal with the fall out. If he wants to see the dcs he follows your families rules as what is acceptable and not acceptable.

I personaly would not be happy with him having access to dcs without one or both of you around.

Your Dh should not remove himself he should be standing firm for your and dds sake.

TheEnthusiasticTroll · 12/09/2012 13:17

I cant think of any member of my family who would push me on any request of doing or not doing something where my own dd is concerned. That is what would make me feel uneasy. that he would push you for a reason or belittle your choices or preferences.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos · 12/09/2012 13:18

I wouldn't have thought that this is a conversation that is best had over email. Is there anyone else in the family that you coudk talk to about it and get them to have a word with him?

I could understand why he wouldn't react that well to it. If he's not doing it with any dodgy intentions, then it's not going to be nice for him to be made to feel like he is dong something wrong when he is just a loving Granddad playing with his granddaughter.

but ultimately, your DHs feelings in this are more important than your Dads because he is the parent, so you shudo stick by him on this one. I still think you could have the conversation as I suggested above, even if you introduced it over email.

WelshMaenad · 12/09/2012 13:23

I have had comversations with DD about appropriate touching. Maybe you could raise this with your dad by saying you did so with your DD and she displayed some confusion about him picking her up/patting her in her private areas, and maybe it would be best for this to stop so as to give her some clarity.

ClippedPhoenix · 12/09/2012 13:23

I gather he doesn't do this with your boy OP - still wrong if he did though to be honest.

No OP it really is not appropriate at all.

Just tell him and sod him getting in a huff.

AdoraBell · 12/09/2012 13:23

I missed your comment about "getting insulting" if this is your parents normal mode of response I would honestly consider reducing contact with a view to stopping completely. That may sound extreme, but it sounds like controlling behavior to me - if you criticize me I will insult you -

You, as an adult and parent, should be able and allowed to address any issue relating to your children. If your parents don't allow that then I would say your DH should speak to them about it.

Nancy66 · 12/09/2012 13:23

God, don't send an email!

You've already said that there is no suggestion of it being in any way sexual.
You send an email and it becomes very 'formal' and sends the message you think he is up to something.

Next time he picks your daughter up in that way just say 'dad, can you pick her up under the arms, she's too big to be picked up like that now.'

diddl · 12/09/2012 13:28

That is the weirdest way of picking up a child that I have heard.

Would assume that it´s uncomfortable for her.

KellyElly · 12/09/2012 13:31

You are just going to have to say it to him face to face and when he says she's just a child etc then you have to say yes, but still it's inappropraite and makes us all uncomfortable. This is your child and you shouldn't be worried about saying anything. I have an uncle who always used to kiss on the lips - from when we were kids to adults. Not pecks big sloppy smackers. He didn't see anything wrong in it, the majority of the rest of the family did. His brother spoke to him, he got a bit shitty but he got over it and now he doesn't do it any more. He wasn't a perv just had weird boundries. Don't worry, you are completely within your right to say something and if he gets pissed off he'll get over it :)

Original poster
codebrown · 12/09/2012 13:33

Yes to both children though DD solicits it climbing all over him more so it is more apparent. I like the way Nancy raises it, but how to deal with bottom patting? Same phrase?
I had just composed an email whilst waiting for responses.. general chit chat, thanking them for nice time etc and a request that going forward they both avoid lifting between the legs and patting bottoms as they are learning about appropriate behaviour and might get confused. And lifting under the arms is easier anyway. Then more normal chit chat. Would that still be a bad idea?? Guess I am dealing with all sorts of isssues at the moment including depression and I want to get rid of the things that bring me down by dealing with them now, and I know I would have to save the situation until next time... but ultimately it does seem the best way. Part of me wants to cut off contact altogether as it is too much for me in general, but the children do love seeing them and I know I would need a bigger reason than that to do so and live with my decision.

OP posts:
NowThenWreck · 12/09/2012 13:34

Something about this is making me feel really uncomfortable.
Breaking it down, I would say:

  1. You feel that if you asked your dad not to hold your daughter between her legs and pat her bottom, he would belittle you/argue with you.
  2. You husband is furious that your dad is able to do this, and feels it is done to exert "control"
3.You mention that your family has weird ideas about privacy and boundries.
  1. He doesn't do it to your son, (who is actually younger).

Honestly? It does sound a bit..wrong. And I am not convinced that your father's motivations are totally innocent. I am sorry to say this, but that is what comes across to me.

She is your child, and you have a responsibility to protect her. You must tell him ASAP that this is not OK.

(And I say all this as someone who is far from being uptight about touching/intimacy, regularly pick up my b6 year old exactly as Outraged describes, as if to "throw" him.)
I also used to chase him, growling, trying to bite his bum! (thats not weird, right??)
This just sounds different to me. Sort of...surreptitious. Sorry.

NowThenWreck · 12/09/2012 13:35

X post OP, regarding both children.x

TheEnthusiasticTroll · 12/09/2012 13:35

dont send that email.surely you should talk with Dh before so anyway.

You really need to just say it when he does it next, you dont even need to give a big explination, just say to him. Dont do that!!