To wonder why MN is obsessed with class?

[Moknicker]

Having read yet another class related thread here, I confess to being puzzled by it. I am a foreigner but have lived in the UK for 15 years and am married to an Englishman. I can honestly say that in all my social interactions here "social class" has never been a factor that has determined anything in my life - be it finding friends, getting a job, etc. Of course lots of other things have been factors - my foreignness, education levels, income levels but never whether I say "napkin" or "serviette" or where I buy my groceries etc.

Is it different for the posters in the "class" threads? Has it ever made it difference to your day to day lives as to what class you were. Or are these just academic discussions (albeit interesting ones) to while away some time? But if so, then why do they crop up again and again?

laqueen are you lequeen with a nc or do we have two queens now? I'm easily confused you see

I do find the LMC obsession with OTT cleanliness and orderliness very tiresome in others though, I've never bought into that one. It often seems to be overcompensating for some other perceived defect in people's lives, such as relationship problems, mild personality disorder, weight problems, general unhappiness or just a general lack of control over some important aspect

of course it comes from a perceived defecit; Historical oppression. The defecit doesnt need to be present now, in your own generation, but the attitude and values are handed down

It comes from pride

Historical oppression? [:)]

Or is it just a need to maintain ones existing possessions to a high standard to avoid incurring replacement costs on a low income?

It's very hard to assess what class posters are on here. If we were to spend five minutes chatting in a poster's house we would probably have a good idea. Online, though, what comes across is mostly a poster's intelligence and personality - which are of course not decided by class.

AIBU is good for getting an idea of a poster's values which can be informed by class (sometimes) - but even then it's difficult.

And you can't really go by what a poster says about themselves - I'm thinking of how the middle class defined themselves in that excellent Grayson Perry documentary - because, well, they may not be correct in their assessment. Like that bloke who thought he had moved to the upper middle class purely because of his income.

are you doubting that the WC have endured historical oppression OP?

LeQueen - still not convinced you are WC. Were you born into private housing or council? You were privately educated, hold a degree, live a MC lifestyle and now your mums family were local gentry (doesn't matter if they lost it, many of them are dirt poor). You're just a WC wanabee and want to be down wid da hood (what the hell am I going on about at )! Be proud and embrace your higher born roots.

Agree with LeQueen that you can drift between classes without really belonging to any.

I have never really felt one thing or the other. Brought up in wealthy MC area in naice house. Yet, went to local, not private school, both parents worked - one professional one skilled. Enjoyed some of the benefits of my generally wealthier friends, but not all - as I child, we had a decent European summer holiday and cultural outings and trips etc but I didn't go skiing/horse riding etc whilst they all did. Most of their mothers didn't work but I was and am still proud that my mum did - and was so good at her job. So I supposed I am WC but had a bit of a faux/aspirational MC upbringing.

However, to answer your original question OP, whilst it has never affected or dictated my life in any way, I do think it has for my DH. He was raised in central London where his parents ran a greasy spoon. He has a very London accent and turn of phrase (which I love) and has worked hard to build up a successful company of which he is the Director. However it is an industry which is full of 'old boys' and very cliquey/networky and I know for a fact that he has been 'judged' and even dismissed for not have the right accent and education despite being brilliant at what he does. Contracts get awarded to a chum from the rowing team back in the day and there's bugger all you can do about it.

It's easy to sound as though you have a chip on your shoulder about it, but DH absolutely doesn't. However, regardless of whatever anyone says, it is a fact that there are still industries where you are judged and excluded for not 'fitting in'. I am sure it works in reverse as well.

Not at all. Im just not sure it adequately explains the OTT cleanliness and maintenance aspects.

Sorry that was in response to imonthefone

We did once encounter a charming older couple who were completely unable to grasp the fact that neither DH nor I had been to a fee-paying school. The man even rephrased the question several times in sheer incredulity.

Overt class-related stuff? I can think of a few instances (e.g. someone who wouldn't let their daughter socialise with my sister until they discovered what our father did for a living (nice middle-class profession) and then suddenly it was fine).

But it's more just a thing that's there. I don't give it much conscious thought on a day-to-day basis, but if you were to give me a list of people I know I could almost certainly tell you with a high degree of accuracy where they sat on a hypothetical class scale in relation to me. I wouldn't be 100% accurate, as imonthefone's experiences show, but I bet I'd be pretty close. And because I can do that I know other people can do it to me, too, the second I open my mouth. By the time I've spoken to someone for five minutes they'll have a reasonable idea of what kind of school I went to, could narrow down my parents' likely jobs, and would if necessary be able hazard a guess as to percetage odds on whether I'd listened to the shipping forecast as a child, ever had music lessons, or had a penchant for Findus crispy pancakes.

In RL I don't think the English (I say "English" advisedly, because I don't know whether it's at all the same for the Northern Irish, Welsh or Scots) consciously think about class very much, or talk about it a huge amount. But anyone who's grown up here doesn't need to consciously think or talk about it.

I hadn't actually considered until pp suggested it that the reason it comes up so much on MN is that all posters are just plain text on a screen with none of the tells that are normally given off, but it sounds plausible.

The British are openly obsessed about class and less openly about race.
The Americans are openly obsessed about race and less openly about class.

Anybody who thinks America's system is not class ridden needs only look at those spending the summer at the Vineyard.

Or is it just a need to maintain ones existing possessions to a high standard to avoid incurring replacement costs on a low income?

Yes. Although it isnt that simple IMO

somethings dont fall under this reason-need and tidy hair for example, and clean ironed clothes

Also, avoiding replacement costs is more of an issue for low-income families, so it is more of a WC habit. Laqueen was talking about retaining these practises....because they have been ingrained. Not because she needs to avoid replacement costs. It is my impression that Laqueen, is now infact loaded?

is it?

oppression, leads to wanting to present yourself as able/equal etc...so outward appearances become overly important moknicker

and to avoid giving anyone ammunition with which to belittle/reject you

I grew up very middle class, private school etc...

now I'm working class.

Its possible to shift down a gear and for nobody in RL to notice!

The British are openly obsessed about class and less openly about race.
The Americans are openly obsessed about race and less openly about class

Ooo YY talk

Class did not come into it for me until the first week of secondary school when a group of girls did a sketch, ripping apart the way I talked and the fact I had ling nails.
Guess which class I was in and which they were in?

Long! Bloody phone!

Online, though, what comes across is mostly a poster's intelligence and personality - which are of course not decided by class

YY tiny