To think every woman who wants it should be offered birth de brief anyway?

[elizaregina]

I say this because FIVE years after my labour which left me in immense pain, esp in my back turns out was back to back!

All these years I have been bleating on how painful it was - turns out it was probably more painful than a normal facing baby. Atlough I am sure some would disagree who have had both, for me I hardly felt anything in front just baclk.

I just dont know why this wasnt clearly communitcated to me in labour.

People may say " Yes well what could they do?"

Maybe nothing except - all of us aknowledge maybe this labour was going to be more painful, maybe help me by giving me the epidural I asked for - and also after I would have known I was exposed to more pain that perhaps is usual!!!

Also - at the end of the day its my bloody body - I have a basic right to know if my baby was back to back.

I think ALL women should be asked if they would like a de brief after this momentous occasions!!!! Also perhaps a de brief would be a good time to get feedback on how it went and how they were treated? Whilst its all still fresh?

Did you ask? I had no idea the nhs could give birth de briefs, but asked the pn ward mw if my notes explained what had happened (things went a bit scary and there were suddenly lots of doctors). She easily went off to find me an explanation.

So no yanbu about debriefs, but yabu if you didn't at any point ask about what had happened (or read your own notes prior to being discharged by the midwives). And yadbu about immigrants.

I agree that everyone should be invited for a post birth de brief. I think it would save them time and money in the long run as it would cut down the numbers of cases of secondary tokophobia.

You seem more angry about the immigration issue than the original reason you posted with.

I agree with you to the extent that some women may need to talk through a traumatic labour experience. Midwives would be unable to do this whether or not there was someone else in labour who needed an interpreter. Theirr job is to deliver your baby and once you and your baby are ok, they go off an deliver someone else's baby.

So yes you do deserve the right to de brief after labour but no it is the job of the midwife and it certainly isn't the fault of non English speaking women in labour.

Yes yes yes! To the option of a de-brief, I don't think it would take much resources to have a quick chat and it would probably save the NHS in other ways if it helped reduce PND in any way. There has to be a way to make it possible. It's often very traumatic for women and you've no idea what's happening to yourself or your child. A quick de-brief afterwards is hardly a lot to ask, I think it's as important as any other midwife appointment to be honest.

Having said that, bringing some anti-immigration rant into it is completely out of order!

I find it quite disgusting actually that you are asking for more time to talk about you labour after it happend and you have a healthy baby in the same breath as wanting to deny another woman the opportunity to even be able to communicate during her labour!

I never said that - but its a simple queston of numbers If my local hosp has to frequenlty close its doors as a direct result of a huge rise in birth rate, if that hosp can only cope with x amount of women and has x amount of midwives - has x resources - how is it fair on ANYONE, the birthing mother - the midwives and all the women who need that resource to allow it to be swamped because we have so many people here?

You do understand the cost of dealing with a lady who turns up with no notes and who needs an interpreter?

Do you think we can swollow that cost without being a drain on resources if every 1 in 20 turned up like that?

Perhaps - do you not think when recent stats say 1 in 4 are non english speaking, that is more of a drain on everyone? Including the ladies that cant speak english.

If we cant afford to make things better - for everyone usuing the service - including foreign born mothers - doesnt the whole service just decline into more danger and ineffectiveness? Because we cant afford to offer simple changes that may make a huge amount of difference to alot of ladies - becaue the megre resources we have are over stretched!

People frequently complain about being given poor treatment during thier labour - left alone, seeing different midwives - we must ask the mw this or that as its too time costly, ladies giving birth in car parks - ladies wanting a home birth as they had such a bad time in hospital,

We are suuposedly a rich nation but it sounds like our maternity wards are getting worse?

Women wanting ELC just to get them into hospital in the first place?

Also might I add NEVER any talk of the idiot drunks fighting on a friday and sat night and how they drain resources - its always women giving birth that are supposee to put up and shut up and take the brunt of cost cutting!

So as I said before I think there are lots of other ways to get a handle on costs - i would rather our maternity services moved forward to provide an excellent service to everyone that it can cope with.

It seems to me that you could have been told your baby was back to back when you were in labour, and if you were too out of it, then that's what a birth partner is for. Or, you could have asked the community midwife that should have come out to see you at home after the birth.

Simply offering a debrief would mean paying thousands more midwives just to have the 20 minute chat or whatever it is you want, without even beginning to touch the understaffing that affects women that are actually in labour!

does it have to be the mw?

Perhaps a way of letting us read our notes- then ask whoever is in charge of ward after to explain anything we dont understand? If you want to go further then arrange a chat with THE midwife, or someone higher.

I am sure alot of women dont want a de brief - I just think it would be nice to say - if you want your notes - or a chat about the birth please ask and we can arrange something!!!

I do not think this shouldnt be offered because - of the statement above.

You have to deal with the cause of the understaffing - its quite simple - you build more hopspitals and get more MW in - or you try and bring down the birth rate!

It seems to me that you could have been told your baby was back to back when you were in labour, and if you were too out of it, then that's what a birth partner is for. Or, you could have asked the community midwife that should have come out to see you at home after the birth.

I was not told at any point my baby was back to back.

I wasnt that out of it - and I kept asking are you sure this is normal pain.

My birth partner has really good listening skills and was alert and on the the ball throughout!

I didnt know to ask the community MW because I mentioned the pain in my back and it was never said - she is or could be back to back.

I was told it was a text book birth.

I also had too many other things going at the time and no experience of what birth pain should feel like to ask her, the community midwife.

If I had been given my notes on the ward - i would have come across something I didnt understand - whilst someone was doing something else to me or the baby I could have asked - casually what does this mean -

" Oh it means baby was back to back"

End of - no cost to anyone. BUT i would have known.

By the way since that birth - I have since had a TWO HOUR chat with a consultant MW at the hospital as well as a one and half hour chat with a consultant and I have been offered an ELC which I am going to take.

This is because of other issues as well - however I cant say - had they known the baby was back to back - given me the epidural I asked for the in the first place......

They might not be spending these extra resources on me.

But we wont know.

Well, my second was back to back and although it was frigging painful, and I ended up with a second degree tear which I didn't with my first, I still think it was an easier labour than my first.

Back to back is pretty normal. You are at higher risk of a tear, and a prolonged delivery (and chronic back pain - ouch!) but it is still normal. I don't think it is necessary to debrief afterwards in this case, but they should of informed you at the time they realised your DD was back to back and I also think they should keep you up to date as you go along.

What did annoy me, was that my midwife had told me for weeks leading up to the birth that DC2 was back to back. When I got to the hospital when I was in labour, I told them he was back to back but they sworn he wasn't once they checked me over and attached me to a monitor. I was right, and they did finally admit it.

But after I gave birth, I knew down there was really stinging and sore, and that something wasn't right. I was ignored, and told everything was fine and to stop worrying. I was left for quite some time until they checked to "put my mind at rest" and found I had actually had a second degree tear.

I do think that they do believe, some of them, that they know best. We may not be qualified like them, BUT, we know our own body and I do think they should listen to us and take what we say seriously. No need for extra midwives to do that, or throw away more money. It doesn't take long to listen to a woman and just do a quick thorough check.

But what difference does it make really? I didn't find my b2b babies more painful, just pain in adifferent place. And they are common enough, they aren't unusual.

I am not saying they should automatically debrief after a back to back or other slightly unusual birth.

What I am saying is - I think I should have been told at some point at the time of the birth - if not in labour itself that my baby was back to back.

Finding out my baby was back to back by chance after FIVE YEARS is a shock to me!

The consutlant head MW said back to back generally ARE more painful.

They should simply give us access to our notes whilst still on the ward should we want them....

I am not saying the mw who deliver should spend time after going through anything.....

I just think it should be clear and transparent - what happened during the birth....for ladies that want it.

As I said if I had been allowed my notes whilst back on the labour ward, at lesuire as I said I could have casually asked someone there and then - what does this mean, and then if I had more questions - my community MW or somoene ......off the front line could have gone into more detail if I so wished.

Surely this is missing the point. It doesn't matter if the baby is back to back the right way round a text book birth or anything else. It matters if any woman feels let down or traumatised about how the birth went or how it was handled. Of course some people find it more painful than others. Even someone who has a so called "text book birth" might feel traumatised afterwards if their expectations of birth weren't met.

OP of course the NHS should build more hospitals and employ more midwives but where does the money come from? No one disagrees with that sentiment, it's just idealistic. I am very interested in how you propose the birth rate could be lowered?

I do think that they do believe, some of them, that they know best. We may not be qualified like them, BUT, we know our own body and I do think they should listen to us and take what we say seriously. No need for extra midwives to do that, or throw away more money. It doesn't take long to listen to a woman and just do a quick thorough check.

This is what concerns me - a core of medics who belive they do know best, my doc says a patient knows his/her own body far better than anyone else and they should always be listened to.

Unfortunalty there is a core of staff who are patronising and know best - and i think they make more work and more costs in the long run.

They do listen.

But at the end of the day that is what they're supposed to do. Help and guide you through birth.

You may know what's going on but a lot of women panic and don't react properly. Without a midwife there many women push at the wrong time and this causes tears. Thts just one example.

I'm sorry but I think you've gone on a tangent here without thinking about it properly.

And we do need more midwives. But thatll cost too much.

Agree with tweasels, any birth can be traumatic. It's a massive event in anyone's life. It's exactly that attitude of 'we got your baby out alive, what more do you want woman?!" which annoys me.

Couldn't it be part of the aftercare visits even? The midwives and/or health visitors have to come & see you anyway, couldn't they take a minute to talk through any questions you have about the birth?

Eliza - you should have been told your baby was back to back. It's common practice to tell you whats going on. Just because they failed you in that sense doesn't mean we all need a 'de brief!

I do agree that you should of been informed as and when they knew she was back to back. Just as they inform you that they are doing an internal to check how dilated you are etc. It takes seconds, and it is disgraceful that you are only aware 5 years down the line.

I think people on the thread are thinking by debrief, you mean a minute by minute run down of your labour. If you only mean that they should keep you updated with the facts, like they do for other things IE how far dilated you are, then I agree with you.

I don't think an epidural would of helped you though with a back to back. I am grateful I didn't get one as I was too far gone, as it took long enough to push him out as it was when feeling the contractions myself, nevermind not feeling them. With my first, I had an epidural after 34 hours of being in labour and being completely buggered. All I wanted to do was sleep when they was telling me to push.

Also, having a traumatic first birth can often lead to complications in subsequent births. Being able to talk it through & understand what happened could help, which would save NHS resources on those future births.

I am very interested in how you propose the birth rate could be lowered?

By introducing a points based system to live here like they do in Oz, America and other countries for the EU as well as countries outside.

By making sure people who come here like the lady from nigeria who came here to have her babies - simply pays first!

Rather than use our serive and leave us with a bill running into tens of thousands of pounds. I belive this is what you have to do in amercia....

When our DD needed treatment in france it didnt amount ot much but we paid for it. I have no trouble with that at all...

When America offers amazing life saving services and you hear about british families saving up to raise the funds to go there to get that treatment - is that wrong?

"Surely this is missing the point. It doesn't matter if the baby is back to back the right way round a text book birth or anything else. It matters if any woman feels let down or traumatised about how the birth went or how it was handled. Of course some people find it more painful than others. Even someone who has a so called "text book birth" might feel traumatised afterwards if their expectations of birth weren't met. "

I felt let down and traumatised by my birth - and I am loathe to blame the MW;s as essentially they were excellent.

BUt I was left in too much pain - for me.

I wasnt given the epi I asked for - I had a labour that was potentially more painful as back to back - I didnt even know this. I would as a basic right expect to know if there was something differnet about my birth - like for instance it was back to back!

Eliza - you should have been told your baby was back to back. It's common practice to tell you whats going on. Just because they failed you in that sense doesn't mean we all need a 'de brief!

I agree - but shouldnt it be there if we want one, or access to our notes?

Apparently the option is there but i certainly didnt know about it as some friends havant known about it.

I think if women were given a realistic view on birth, a debrief would only be necessary for a minority of women.
Let's face it, it isn't a walk in the park and it shouldn't be portrayed as such!

It isn't abnormal to have a back to back labour. You may have coped better with a labour which wasn't back to back, but you can't be sure.

The midwife was right that the pain you experienced was 'normal'. Labour hurts and is exhausting, in general.

You should have been allowed to have the epidural if you requested it and needed it, whatever position your baby was in.

You are turning 'back to back labour' into 'birth complication' and that simply isn't true.

Our hospital has a 'birth afterthoughts' service which is very well advertised. I don't think it requires a national campaign.

A 'birth afterthoughts' service sounds perfect. It's a real shame it isn't available in all hospitals. I really do think it would help women come to terms with any negative experiences. Otherwise the fear for the next birth can be horrendous, and that's been proven to prolong labour & contribute to complications - it makes sense for everyone if women can be helped to understand and come to terms with their birth experiences instead of being dismissed and told to suck it up & be grateful their baby's alive.

Lougle, I don't think the OP is claiming her birth was unusual, I think she just feels rightly that she should have been informed that her baby was back to back which MAY (I know not in all cases) have made the birth more painful than a more common delivery.

She May have felt differently about the labour and future deliveries had she had all the facts.

Whilst I have differing opinions to her on other matters I feel it is unfair that people keep flaming her about the back to back thing.

And yes, as Abody says that birth afterthoughts service sounds excellent. Probably exactly what Eliza was thinking of. It just obviously isn't available everywhere.