In thinking that MN shouldn't be recommending homeopathic pain relief for labour?

[MediumOrchid]

MN have recently (well it might not be recent actually, I might have only just noticed it!) put together a page listing some forms of natural pain relief for labour - here. I am hoping to have as natural a labour as possible, so I was pleased to find advice about this. However, I was a bit suprised to find a section on homeopathic pain relief. There is no scientific evidence that homeopathy has any effect beyond that of a placebo. I sent MNHQ an email about this and suggested that they either removed the section or put in a disclaimer, which they did (note the star at the bottom of the page).

But should there even be a section about homeopathy, which MN appears to be recommending as a sensible form of pain relief? It may be that for some women during labour, all they need is a placebo to make them think that their pain is reduced. Some people I know are big fans of homeopathy, and I have nothing against them using it as much as they like. But is it right for a website like MN to recommend it to women?

This is an interesting article about homeopathy written by Ben Goldacre
(author of Bad Science). Particularly interesting is the paragraph at the bottom detailing what homeopathic remedies actually contain.

We are adults and can make up our own minds. You have the disclaimer.

I suggest you fight a battle that is worth the effort

If it reduces their pain than placebo or not, it'd a good thing.

It's doing no harm. What is your problem?

I did a Psychology degree and studied pain. About 80% of the pain-killing effect of morphine can be placebo effect. It is an incredibly powerful effect. So, if people believe in homeopathy water or sugar pills they will feel a great effect. Being in control and feeling powerful in labour is very important so this could also help.

In summary, shhhhhhhh, don't tell people it's nonsense or the placebo effect won't work. Shhhhhhh.

It says use with caution. Lots of women use it, lots of women find it helps. Every little helps when you're in labour, I can't see how this is a problem.

Whilst I agree that homeopathy is a load of cobblers, it is the placebo effect that is important here and shouldnt be underestimated. If someone believes that a homeopathic remedy is working and the placebo actually reduces the pain for them, then it has done the job, even if it is just water!

Other natural forms of pain relief such as TENS and hypnotherapy also rely on 'mind over matter', why arent you up in arms about that?

So who died and made you Head Girl OP? Sheesh - you do know that adults are capable of forming their own opinions right?

Gas and air works for some, it makes others sick, pethedine works for some, it makes others feel worse, epidurals are brilliant in some cases and awful in others, people are free to make up their own minds about things and try different methods of pain relief.

I suppose you are right about the placebo effect, if it doesn't hurt anyone and might help (as a placebo), then why not? It's just the principle of a site like MN recommending something that is known to be false that seems wrong. Also, there are plenty of other forms of natural pain relief out there, which the page also lists, so why not just focus on them? Why mention homeopathy at all?

saltnpepashere, hypnotherapy is completely open about about the fact that it is 'mind over matter', which I agree can be very powerful, wheares homeopathy pretends that there's something in what you take that actually reduces pain. I think there's quite a difference. And I would assume that there actually is evidence that TENS machines work (I hope so at least!).

Yes, people can make up their own minds, that's not the point. The issue is about MN recommending it. To the uninformed reader who knows nothing of homeopathy, the very fact that it is detailed on this site will make them think it must be a good thing to use, and MN approves of it. They are not going to go away and research it (they may, but many won't).

Oh fgs

I'm not that bothered - MN will put on its site what it wants to. I just thought it would be interesting to see what everyone else thought.

I must be interpreting it differently to you, because I don't read that they are recommending it. I read that they are explaining it. Along with other things.

Not a recommendation, but information.

And there's a section just as big on pain relief here epidurals, gas & air, pethadine.

I am not reading any bias anywhere, I haven't read anything that is recommending to pregnant women that they choose one over another.

If it's there and I missed it, I apologise and would you mind linking it or c&p for me?

Ironically, it'll be the least informed who it'll work best on. Placebo effect, innit.

Hecate - I know that MN aren't recommending it in so many words. But surely just by them putting it on their site they are rasing it as a possibility in people's minds as something they might like to use? But I do see what you mean.

When I take paracetamol for a headache 9 times out of 10 it works via a placebo effect. I know this because it works far too quickly for the effect to be drug action (within 5 minutes). Perhaps I should stop taking it? Epseically when you consider that paracetamol has after all killed many more people than homeopathy.

Why don't you let grown ups make their own minds up and decide themselves how to look after themselves and their own health? If someone gets through labour using TENS, massage, water and homeopathy that surely has to be better thing than needing pethidine, epidurals and other heavy duty drugs (I write as someone who had the whole host of heavy duty drugs during labour).

You mean MN are letting people know all their options in a non bias way How could they......

deception is apparently not needed for placebo.

When I take a paracetamol for a headache I run a little check to see whether the placebo has kicked in that day or whether I've had to wait for drug action. As I said before about 9 times out of 10 it's placebo. Perhaps I should automatically try placebo first? Got to be better than taking a paracetamol... hmmm.

OK, fair enough comments. Lets look at it slightly differently.

One of the quotes from MNers states that she took 'Arnica 200c just before and a couple of hours after delivery, and Arnica 30c for a few days either side of my due date to help the healing process'. Now wouldn't it have been more helpful for her, and other people, to have taken something containing actual Arnica, for which I believe there is evidence that it aids healing? 200c Arnica doesn't actually contain any Arnica.

And yes, I know MN aren't saying 'take homeopathic Arnica', but many people reading the advice won't know about homeopathy and will think this is somethng they should buy to help them heal. And I don't believe the placebo effect works with healing tears etc.

I think you are right. Having information on something does raise it as a possibility in people's minds as something they might like to use. That's why you give them the information.

If you interpret that as recommending it, then that means that they are also recommending
Epidurals
Mobile epidurals
Gas and air
Pethidine
Meptazinol
Spinal block
Combined spinal epidural
Rest
Heat and cold
Massage
Position
Aromatherapy
Hypnotherapy
and TENS

That's going to be one hell of a birth

I really think they are just covering everything. Giving information on all the things women commonly use.

And there's nothing wrong with giving women information on something they didn't previously have information on. it's important to understand all your options and find the one that's right for you.

oh actually that's interesting (the homeopathy link). In my third birth (second labour) I wasn't allowed anything to speed up contractions as it was an attempt at VBA2C and the risks of uterine rupture were too high. However, I had the same problems as I had in the my first labour where contractions were irregular and kept stopping (then they used heavy duty drugs - failed in the end). So third time round I had homeopathic caulophyllum. Interestingly every time I took it the contractions restarted and stayed stronger and regular for about 20 minutes before dying away again. Note I am NOT saying that this means caulophyllum 'works' - I am simply saying that whether it was the remedy or the placebo effect it did kick start my uterus back into action a few times. Which is presumably better than being given nothing or being give a drug which risked a uterine rupture.

this stuff hurts people in the pocket which shouldnt be underestimated
And placebo effect does work to some extent when people know theyre being given a small pill of crap - placebo much more complicated than that

Not sure medium orchid the small part of this Scientific American article I can see suggests otherwise.

under £20 for various birth kits Stealth. If people routinely use homeopathy they'll have most of the remedies anyway. Those birth kits would probably last a few babies anyway. It's not exactly expensive.

Agree Op! We stupidly spent £30 10 years ago on this rubbish and never used a thing! It's been disproven unlike hypnotherapy or acupuncture so agree shouldnt be promoted either by mn or the nhs