In thinking that MN shouldn't be recommending homeopathic pain relief for labour?

[MediumOrchid]

MN have recently (well it might not be recent actually, I might have only just noticed it!) put together a page listing some forms of natural pain relief for labour - here. I am hoping to have as natural a labour as possible, so I was pleased to find advice about this. However, I was a bit suprised to find a section on homeopathic pain relief. There is no scientific evidence that homeopathy has any effect beyond that of a placebo. I sent MNHQ an email about this and suggested that they either removed the section or put in a disclaimer, which they did (note the star at the bottom of the page).

But should there even be a section about homeopathy, which MN appears to be recommending as a sensible form of pain relief? It may be that for some women during labour, all they need is a placebo to make them think that their pain is reduced. Some people I know are big fans of homeopathy, and I have nothing against them using it as much as they like. But is it right for a website like MN to recommend it to women?

This is an interesting article about homeopathy written by Ben Goldacre
(author of Bad Science). Particularly interesting is the paragraph at the bottom detailing what homeopathic remedies actually contain.

I don't get it. So what of it raises it as a possibility. For a lot of people its a viable option.

I believe that the evidence for TENS machines relieving pain in labour is actually a bit pants.

I used one anyway and found it helped. Given that the drugs you can take in labour at so restrictive, in this case does it matter if you're taking fairy sprinkles if it has a placebo effect to help the mother cope with labour?

Of course it works. Haven't you seen comments from Giselle [supermodel type]. You just light a smelly candle and breathe out the baby................
Seriously - people are going to look at all the "options", plan on trying what they fancy, and eventually move onto what actually works as pain relief should it be necessary. Why get your knickers in a twist over some herbal stuff? It seems reasonably (with a disclaimer) that MN is listing it as an option which may work for some people, and to be fair is probably all that's available to many women globally. If all that was on there was an epidural and surgery that would be fairly skewed too.

Anything that could potentially relax the mother is fine by me. I would have thought the act of just discussing it with homeopathy therapist would provide some comfort to worried mums to be.

Thank you Salbertina and StealthPolarBear - I shall cling to your support under my sea of YABUs!

To everyone else. Fair enough. There's no harm in itself in someone using a placebo during labour. If it doesn't work, they can move onto a proper drug/method of pain relief. I suppose my concern is that they have built up an expectation of a natural birth and then end up being unprepared and having drugs/epidurals that they didn't want. But this could happen with any form of natural pain relief.

I think I am just so opposed to the idea of homeopathy that I can't tolerate its use or promotion even in its most harmless form. The problem I have is when it is used before or instead of proper medical treatment. So someone takes homeopathy during labour, and finds it helps, due to the placebo effect. They rave about it to their friends, and as soon as a symptom of something comes along they turn to homeopathy to treat it. Great, until they become ill with something serious, which goes untreated until they give in to going to see a doctor.

Someone did a study once (I can find the link if people want it) where they phoned up or met with a number of homeopaths and asked them for advice about homeopathic anti-malarials. Every single one recommended that they took a homepathic treatment, and not one recommended that they visit an actual doctor for proper advice. This is advice that can kill people.

oscarwilde - please be aware that homeopathy is not 'herbal'. For it to be so it has to contain actual herbs. Have a look at the bottom of the article I linked to for an explanation of how homeopathic remedies are made. I don't have any problem with herbal treatments.

YAsoNBU

20-30 pounds may not be a lot but a bag of sugar and tap water is a lot cheaper. Which is all this is. My MW said it best. When homeopathy was mentioned, I said, "I would like to see a positive double blind study", she said, "you will never see a double blind study".

Hmm you need to see the questions then though don't you, and how it was phrased. Whilst I would expect a homeopath to correct someone mistakenly under the impression that they were purchasing standard treatment I wouldn't necessarily expect them to insist someone who has made up their mind not to have conventional treatment see a doctor. Homeopathic training actually includes learning about symptoms that suggest a doctor needs to be seen but they can't force people. I certainly know a homeopath who persuaded and AIDS patient to take AZT (they initially refused as they distrusted conventional medicine).

I'm sure some give dodgy advice. As do some doctors, I had a GP tell me girls can't get autism but I don't therefore damn all doctors because one was stupid.

There's enough information out there for people to make their own choices. It's not difficult to find out the standard medical advice for travel to malarial regions. Some people will choose not to follow that, but I'm not sure the blame (if there is blame to be given) should be with homeopaths.

IME most people choose conventional medicine to deal with the deadly stuff, and they choose alternative therapies to help with the side effects of conventional treatments and chronic conditions (where conventional medicine often can't offer very much). Yes, some people do choose to reject all conventional medicine, but this is very rare, and usually happens before they have met an alternative practitioner. Whether practitioners should then treat those people is a different matter.

I have come across a couple of people who have rejected standard cancer treatments (used as an example as it seems to be a common fear that homeopaths will persuade people not to have chemo) - but they've all been doing the fruit thing instead used by Michael Gearin-Tosh . I can understand why people would not want to go near chemotherapy, especially if their chances of survival with it are very low or talked of in terms of extra months. All the homeopaths I know have worked with cancer patients to control symptoms and side effects from drugs, rather than to actually try and treat cancer itself.

YADNBU! I'm with you and the Ben Goldacres of this world all the way! The sooner reputable websites and communities stop peddling this total and utter nonsense, the better. Anyone who maintains that homeopathy is harmless therefore what's the problem? should have a read of this for starters: www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php

As for the right to choose...we need unbiased evidence to make a choice and that is not what we get from peddlers of snake oil. We get anecdotal examples, spurious claims and outright lies.

It cost me more to hire a TENS machine 14 years ago which did SFA. :shrugs: I just didn't use it again.

If it makes a woman feel more relaxed, confident and less fearful, it works - she will feel better, birth easier and have less interventions. I don't care if "it" is a sugar pill, a smelly oil or repeatedly singing nursery rhymes.
I wouldn't use it myself, but I wouldn't deny others that option.
Many prescription drugs (esp antidepressants) have no greater effect than a placebo.

A placebo effect is still an effect if it isnt dangerous the woman pushing is happy then it is doing her no harm

Am in two minds about this. I don't believe homoeopathy works, but I do believe in the power of the placebo effect. Homeopathic tablets won't actually make you feel ill, whereas pethidine and gas and air do often make people feel ill. And despite the extraordinary popularity of SSRIs as a treatment for depression, a meta study a couple of years ago found that in mild-to-moderate cases they were no more effective than placebo.

So, I suppose, if people want to take homoeopathic remedies for pain, let them, is my view.

While they won't wipe away the pain, a number of homeopathic remedies are said to help during childbirth

How in the name of Jeff is that a recommendation?

YABU

MN is just providing all of the options. There are lots of conflicting evidence re: homoeopathy, but some people swear that it works and MN isn't doing anything wrong by proposing it as an option that you might like to consider.

I don't believe in it either though :) so I see where you're coming from

I find it funny that arnica is described as homeopathic - I think of it as a herbal remedy. Herbs do work, you just have to be careful!

Having been through labour my fair share of times I'd advocate a whatever gets you through approach.

As an aside I spent £400 on acupuncture in my last labour to attempt to ensure my baby was on time, she was my latest yet at a whopping 15 days overdue. You can but try.

Arnica is effective as a treatment. Homeopathic arnica is water or sugar that once hung out with arnica, they were friends, lived next door to each other, fell out and now they don't speak

I agree with the OP.

Yes, of course everyone can make their own decision. But to me the fact that MN might even include homeopathic remedies, adds credence to their authenticity

I bought a bloody big birth kit from Neils Farm for pregnancy and labour, what a waste of so much money!

Arnica does work very well though.

Would you agree with MN recommending Stealth's Potent Labour Milk (c) then? It's only £1.99 a glass and may reduce pain in labour, may reduce the need for further intervention and is GUARANTEED to have the baby receiving a first at Oxbridge in 22 years' time.

I have no problem with herbal remedies, acupunture, tens etc. But homeopathy makes me grind my teeth and get my knickers in a knot for some reason.

(OK so the bit about oxbridge was just a made up claim)

It works for some and not for others, the same as tens, gas and air of and even epidurials don't always take.

I suggest you worry less about this and focus on some real problems.

It's Mumsnet, not the NICE website. MN is naice, not NICE. Geddit? If people are getting their sole birth pain relief information from a website that devotes itself to the discussion of other people's shopping lists, what boots to buy this season and Channel 4's overage of the paralympics, they deserve all the homeopathy they get. Or don't get, as it's just sugar and water.