to think this is a total pisstake and turn the job down?

[WaterGypsy]

Was offered a job as a CM assistant months ago by an aquaintance. Had to do 1st aid course, CRB check etc.

Have just been informed that I can start next week as the paperwork is all back. Apparently I need to register as self employed, and am then expected to do 2 school runs and a nursery run, plus trips out to soft play, parks etc in my own car and 'claim the fuel back'. All for the princely sum of £5 ph. Apparently 1/2 mile each way is too far for the 4year olds to walk to school. It is probably also worth mentioning that I walk almost eveywhere as my old banger is on her last legs and when she goes I won't be able to replace her.

Is this legal? Will my insurance cover me to do this? And most importantly is it even worth it? She also wants me to fork out 40 bleeding quid for 2 printed work shirts!

Ignore me whilst I just do some calculations

personal allowance 2012/13 = £8105.

Thats £155 pw before tax.

At £5ph, roughly 31 hours a week.

is this a full time assistant or just a school run one?

So £5 x 40hr pw = annual income of £10,400.

Tax liability = £2,295 @ 20% = £459 tax paid

Nah not enough to claim anything back.

I wonder it may still be worth talking to her about this. Maybe she can't afford to negotiate the pay but you could try discussing the fact that at such low rates she should provide the work clothes and pay for the extra costs and also accept that 1/2 mile is fine for a child to walk. It seems to me that if these problems were solved you would be happy to do the job?

You can't be registered as self employed when you are working for someone - you try now and get in touch with the tax office and try and get this sorted, you will find you are not able to pay tax. Have had friend try this as she is now being classed as self employed working as an assistant - she is in a right mess and is going to have to find another job as it will effect her NI and it has mess up her state pension and she will be classed as earning cash in hand

Blip, have tried all that today, but she is adamant that using my car is a necessary requirement of the job, and I will have to cover the cost of doing so.

Jumping, hours were 8.30am ti 6pm on Mondays and Tuesdays, so a bit less than your calculations!

Thank you all for the links, will do that tonight!

TBH if you are self employed then - well you set the price you will do the job for so just tell her your price is 10 pouns per hour for your time and she can take it or leave it if she can't afford you.

I get the impression that it is just for a few hours a week, so OP could be self-employed. If she is going to negotiate, I would insist on hourly rate at minimum wage level, wearing normal clothes or free workshirts, and reimbursement of 45p per mile which should cover petrol costs, extra insurance costs and wear and tear on the car. If the acquaintance says she can't afford this, then it is even more incentive for the 4 year-old to walk.

If you are only working for one person, are required to wear that person's uniform, and are not able to set your own working hours, that ticks all of the taxman's boxes for being an employee. So NWP most definitely applies.
Depending on the number of hours worked, there is also the question of N.I to be paid.
And very important but not mentioned above, has she got insurance to cover accident or injury to the children under your care? If not, and one of then breaks a leg or worse, you could be in for a financial disaster.

And she wants you to work the first 8 hours free, to pay for her shirts to advertise her business! I would tell he to f off.

sorry NMW not NWP

I'd put the ball back in her court if you are willing to accept the £5 per hour rate.

There's a couple of ways you could get round the "below minimum wage" thing.

Firstly you could agree that you will submit a timesheet for less hours than you have actually worked so that it looks like a higher pay rate per hour - not legal but I know it happens .

Alternatively. she could agree to pay you NMW but then deduct a charge for accomodating your own dd as this will affect the total number of mindees that she can have. She would presumably have to declare your gross pay and deduct the charge from your net pay but I'm guessing that you're not planning on earning enough to pay tax and NI anyway so it won't make any difference. As your dd will prsumably be there every hour that you are there this could work.

You could then try to agree a reasonable rate for mileage, tax office official rate is 45p/mile but she could pay you less per mile if you both agree. You could also ensure that she doesn't put the need for you to have a car in any contract you sign. As a parent however I'd be unhappy about a CM's assistant running my children around in "an old banger" unless it was fully insured and had a valid current MOT. I'd also be happier for my child to walk half a mile each way on the school run as it is great exercise and a good start to the day. Perhaps as her previous assistant has been doing the school run on foot and parents are used to this she needs to pass the cost of a chauffered school run onto them with the cost being split between the number of parents involved. It may only add up to less than 50p per parent per day if there are a few of them.

With regards the printed t shirts, tell her it's just too expensive and see if you can source your own cheaper but no way agree to buy from her as what happens when winter comes, will you be asked to buy sweatshirts too and then new t-shirts next summer etc etc ? (Although don't underestimate the value of a uniform that keeps your own clothes from being trashed by food/snot/vomit/paint/glitter/glue/playdough etc etc.)

She was not upfront with you about the employment status or the fact that you'd be doing all the mileage whilst she stayed home (not clocking up petrol costs), although maybe she has so many mindees that outings require 2 cars. Because she hid the additional costs from you I'd be inclined to hold out for employment or nothing and if she refuses to employ you, then you are under no obligation to pay for the course and CRB check fee.

Just to add that as you would only be working for one person you wouldn't be genuinely self-employed as far as the tax people are concerned. If you went to register as self-employed and explained the circumstances to them they would say no and possibly have issues with your would be "customer"'s attitude to employment status !

She is taking the piss. As to claiming back from the tax man, i dont see how the OP could do this. You dont claim the money back, but as a self employed person, you have expenses - travel too work doesn't count, but if you use your vehicle as part of your job then it counts, so you can declare this as an expense and "claim back" petrol costs etc. There are several things that as a self employed person you can "claim back" but the tax man wont give you any money - it just means you are declaring these as expenses and not profit - it sort of feels like you are claiming money back, but you're not. Its just that if you have had to spend out to carry out your job, that is not profit so you wont be taxed on it. So, my DP is a builder, so his turn over would be X, minus materials Y, expenses (anything from petrol to use of home as office, laundry etc) Z so X-Y-Z = net profit (or is it gross?) and you pay the tax on that. Sometimes if you are taxed at source, and these things are accounted for, you end up "claiming back" this money, but this is money you have already paid to the tax man, so you get it back. Oherwise you just don't pay it in the first place. That probably makes little sense, sorry.

OP this woman is taking the actual piss, it is not worth your while for that money, you wont be able to claim back your expenses as you doubtless wont earn enough in the year to pay any tax, and remember, you only effectively get 20% of that "back". You could put a claim for expenses in to her, she pays you that and then can declare as expenses and claim back HER tax on it.

Sorry that turned out to be a bit long but I was trying to see if between you and the CM you could work something out as you do want the money and said you knew about it being £5/hour which didn't put you off initially.

If this puts any perspective on things; I do the accounts and wages for our local playgroup. There are several employees and its committee run. Some employees are contracted to as a little as six hours per week. They are all employed with a contract and are paid slightly more than minimum wage. All training is paid for by the playgroup, all workwear is provided by the playgroup and all training is paid for by playgroup. This is the bare minimum you should expect along with associated holiday pay and other employee rights.

the second training is supposed to say expenses, sorry making dinner and making a hash of this.

If you are self employed you would also have to have public liability insurance. By the time you have finished you would be better off registering as a child minder yourself and you could earn more money. You will have to pay tax on your earnings and have to do accounting as well. I would weigh up the costs up first as there is a lot of expense involved on your part with very little money earned.

She doesn't want to negotiate. The OP's already tried, so I'm afraid, 'Fuck off' is the only acceptable answer to this piss-taker.

'Firstly you could agree that you will submit a timesheet for less hours than you have actually worked so that it looks like a higher pay rate per hour - not legal but I know it happens'

Not only is this not legal- it's actually FRAUD. And if the OP wishes to apply for a mortgage- either she lies on the mortgage application (fraud again) or she ends up looking like she is earning a negligible amount which means no mortgage anyway.

MardyArsedMidlander

Fraud is intent to make personal gain (at someone else's expense) or to damage another individual. Who is making a gain here or who is being damaged ?

I made clear that the timesheet hours/payrate thing is not legal. I also happen to know it goes on and have NEVER seen it uncovered by any of the relevant authorities. If anything, the OP would be technically working less hours so shooting herself in the foot if more hours were necessary to qualify for tax credits.

The amount earned remains the same. 4 x 6 = 6 x 4 and as mortgage applications are based on total earnings not hours worked/rate of pay per hour, I fail to see your point. A fraudulent mortgage application would be if the OP stated she earned £150 A week when she only earned £100 per week. The op will put down waht she is earning which may well be a negligible amount but the total earnings won't be mis-stated in any way.

I can see why you might be happy to accept a low wage for a job where you can take DD and not pay childcare. But the Tshirt thing is hugely out of order, the car thing she's either mistaken or trying to pull the wool over your eyes and, most importantly, it's not legal for you to claim that you're self-employed.

Coke's idea that you work as an employee for NMW but have childcare deducted sounds like a possible compromise.

As an aside I would be so pissed off if I thought my kids were being transported in an old car that likely has a crap safety rating

I once worked for a dodgy private school where the HT wanted me to be self-employed to avoid having to pay National Insurance. He offered to pay my petrol for travel to school.

I went to the tax office who said I could not be self employed because I could not set my own timetable and could they have the school's address because they would like to investigate and prosecute.

It is illegal and you should have nothing to do with it.

The fact that she has paid for things crucial to your job such as the first aid course and the CRB check make you seem more like an employee. Also, what is the "company name" on the CRB check as I think each one is only applicable to one company Or group ie if you helped out at a school and a Brownie pack you would need two .

Cantspel nannies aren't generally self employed.

OP if you do go ahead on this basis, will she sign a contract agreeing that if HMRC investigate and determine you are an employee, she is liable for any tax and NI due? I doubt she will..,

Finally if my chIldminder told me an assistant wOuld be collecting my children now, I would probably make some enquiries about car seats, insurance etc.

Also if you want to be honest with the mortgage company you must tell them your net earnings after you've paid the necessary outgoings - car costs, uniform, liability insurance premiums etc. It isn't going to amount to much.

I think you should steer clear of this women for two reasons..

1. It's not financially worth it for you.
2. The corners she is cutting with her business mean it's not safe for the children and is not something you should want to get involved in.

If I Were to do the job, I would of course make sure my insurance covered it. My car is not a complete wreck, has an MOT, insurance, tax etc, but it is 12 years old, and has done 112,000 miles, so I'd rather not rack up more miles than I have to!

Company name on the CRB check is her company name.

I went self employed and came off sick.benefit for one employ for her benefit not mine she then said she couldn't afford to give me any more work. Screwed over is not the word. Don't do it. Once you've been self employed you will be asked to fill out tax returns forever more as the revenue sees you as more risky. What is.being proposed here is not self employment. Also your car insurance covers social domestic and pleasure. You are definitely not covered for work purposes.

I think to incorporate your DD's child care in this, you would have to be paid at least NMW and then pay her company a rate for your DD's care. This rate could be set such that the net result was acceptable to both of you - there may be a reasonableness test as a low rate could be a benefit in kind but say she paid you £9 per hour snd you paid her £4 per hour so a £1 per hour employee didcount. As an employee then you could charge mileage to her company (but would still need business car insurance), be covered by her public liability certificate etc.