To think horses do not belong in the Olympics

[StunningCunt]

They've got this horse prancing sideways with a toff in a top hat on the top, and they are devoting hours of TV coverage because we might get a gold medal in this nonsense?

Why don't they just have a dog show there and be done with it?

Competitive sheep herding?

Motor racing?

with a toff in a top hat
Why is that relevant? Would it make a difference to you if the rider was very obviously not a toff? A plumber from Rhyll in his overalls perhaps? A shelf stacker from Hull in her supermarket uniform??

Aaaah inverted snobs. Doncha just love 'em?!

I'll put this to rest!
I have a 4 year old sports horse. He has some 'natural ability'. Since that is all that's required, would any of you claiming the rider "just sits there" like to come and "just sit there" on him?

If you can get him moving in such a way that he would score decently a the lowest possible dressage test, then I will stand corrected, and will back you up.

Any takers? I'm being serious.

If Lewis Hamilton engineered and built his own car like the way riders breed and train their own horses, then we might be getting somewhere with your argument.

Yabvu
2nd best thing about the Olympics apart from watching fit young men running around in pants.
It takes a hell of a lot of skill to get a horse round a course, particularly dressage.
Years and years of training.

Riding is pretty elitist though. Pretty down to it costing a bloody fortune to keep a horse.
I would love my kids to ride but lessons let alone livery is waaaaaay to much for us.
It would be cheaper if we didn't live in the city but the thought of vets bills and shoeing alone makes me shudder.
I would so love a dear little pony , ever so much

Dire straits of the equestrian teams? Err, would those be the same teams to have won 2 golds and a silver for GB?

OP, YABVU. The equestrian sports have been incredible. For anyone doubting the riders' ability, try sitting on one of those dressage horses yourself and just go around the dressage arena once and try to do a couple of simple transitions from just walk to trot or walk to canter you will be shitting yourself. To anyone thinking that the rider does nothing but sit there, you are speaking from ignorance alone.

It is well recognised that many of the winning athletes have had an upbringing of some privilege: let's hope it's a legacy of these games that all Olympic sports are accessible to all people, regardless of background (riders, rowers and athletics alike).

"The simple fact is that the performance of any rider is entirely down to the performance of his animal."

Nonsense. If that was the case, you wouldn't get the same riders appearing consistently for decades on different horses.

x-post with QueenofDiamonds - has Nancy66 contacted you to take you up on your offer yet?

Beanie you're being deliberately obtuse. Part of the skill is getting the best out of that particular horse to beat the other riders on horses which may, on paper (breeding) or previous form be expected to perform better. And the rider gets the best out of it by being more skilled and talented than the other riders.

Carl Hester has been to three Olympics on three different horses. Nick Skelton has been to six Olympics on either five or six different horses. Mary King has been to five Olympics on five different horses. In that time they've all had a variety of trainers (in fact I don't even think Carl has a trainer any more, he does it himself), different breeders, different breeds of horse, different owners, different stables and different grooms/helpers in that time. How can their consistency at the highest level in the world be down to anything other than their own individual skill?

Rinders - Not yet, though I remmain hopefull - Since actual olympic riders do sod all to get to grand prix level, I expect breaking my little SH should be a doddle for them, and I will be hacking out by next week at the very least. Care to join?

x-post with Grimma

"How can their consistency at the highest level in the world be down to anything other than their own individual skill?"

In that case why not a pool of horses assigned randomly to riders as in the modern pentathlon?

Because part of their skill is developing their horse and their relationship with it.

"Because part of their skill is developing their horse and their relationship with it."

So you agree - the outcome of an event is dependent on the animal as much as the rider?

Also, Chris Hoy has just said words to the effect that he is very dependent on the "100 guys" in his team -- that he is just the tip, the visible part, of a group effort. And many other winners have said the same. It isn't realistic to think that, in any sport, a competitor's individual performance is in isolation from external contributions of any sort.

"In that case why not a pool of horses assigned randomly to riders as in the modern pentathlon?"

I remember in pony club 'best rider' competitions we used to have to swap horses. I guess these Olympians have moved on a little from that.

No. I think that the horse's contribution is shaped by the rider (both in training and on the day), so the rider is the overwhelming influence.

Hmm...Toff in a hat? Taken from wiki

"Carl was raised on the tiny Channel island of Sark, the island has no cars and horses are very much part of Sark life. The first equine to be subjected to Carl?s skill was a donkey that Carl would ride to the village shop.

The donkey was followed by a string of ponies and horses on the island, many led a double life pulling carraiges in the day and becoming gymkana ponies for the local kids on their days off. Carl, like most kids raised on Sark drove carriages for tourists in school holidays as a way to earn pocket money. Once a year the whole island gets together for the Sark horse show. This tradition still remains and the horse show weekend has now become an annual pilgrimage for Carl and friends.

At 19 Carl had no ambition or aspirations but with no jobs on Sark and winter coming he decided to apply for a job with horses on the mainland. Through an advertisement in Horse and Hound Carl arrived at The Fortune Centre of Riding Therapy, where adults with learning and physical disabilities are given a sense of freedom and achievement through riding. It was there Carl had his first opportunity to compete and it was on the Fortune Centre?s skewbald mare, Jolly Dolly, that Carl won the 1985 Young Dressage Rider Championship.
His next job took him to the Gloucestershire village of Bourton-on-the-Hill and the farm of Jannie and Christopher Taylor. While at the farm Carl competed at the first Blenheim Horse Trials and won the Spillers Dressage with Jumping Championship.

Carl?s career took the most dramatic turn when Dr Bechtolsheimer approached him to join his yard as a rider. Carl rode and trained with Dr Bechtolsheimer for three and a half years and in 1990 went to the World Championships on Rubelit von Unkenriff, the European Championships in 1991 and in 1992 the Barcelona Olympics on Georgioni. Carl became the youngest British rider to ever compete in an Olympic Games.

On leaving Dr Bechtolsheimer, Carl went into a business partnership with Kate Carter at her yard at Stow-on-the-Wold. This continued until Kate decided to move for more space for her stud activities and soon Carl too had moved to buy his own yard."

I think that's quite inspirational actually.

As Oaty says, part of the skill is working with a horse and developing it, in the case of the cross country phase, the fences are physically scary when you walk up to the them, the horses are often asked to jump when they cannot see where they will land. It takes years to build up that level of trust with a horse.

The second reason. there aren't that many horses that will be able to perform / jump etc at that level, its not that simple to just find some nags able to do it. The pentathlon course doesn't have the level of difficulty that the pure equestrian events have.

You will probably then argue, well lower the fences, make it easier, but it wouldn't be the Olympics then, it should be harder / faster more difficult than the Grand Prix or annual events.

My DC had ponies and we were never really well off but it was money well spent. I was given riding lessons for passing the 11+. I grew up in a council house. I don't enjoy many sports but the equestrian events are wonderful.

"Also, Chris Hoy has just said words to the effect that he is very dependent on the "100 guys" in his team -- that he is just the tip, the visible part, of a group effort. And many other winners have said the same. It isn't realistic to think that, in any sport, a competitor's individual performance is in isolation from external contributions of any sort."

But put Chris Hoy on the French team's bike and the outcome would be the same.

Put Chris Hester on another team's horse horse and it simply wouldn't be.

Just to re-iterate here - my objection is not that equestrian events do not involve any skill, they obviously do. My objection is that in an event that celebrates the peak of human achievement a sport where the result is so closely tied to the utterly subjective performance of an animal (as admitted by many posters) simply doesn't belong there and the only reason it is is because of money.

No other Olympic sport is so subjective or opaque. Usain Bolt would still be the fastest man on earth in a pair of Nikes.

If Equestrian events can be an Olympic event then there is no logical reason why Formula 1 cannot be.

So you agree - the outcome of an event is dependent on the animal as much as the rider?

Of course it is, Has anyone denied that?
I think you are deliberately missing the point though.
The relationship between the horse and rider competing is all part of the immense skill that it takes to compete at this level. The years of work, training, competing, care and love for the animal itself are all part of that test you are watching.

Without that we wouldn't have these sorts of competitions.

There are certain horses that pretty much anyone can jump on and get what they want out of it, But you won't find them at the olympics. Try your local pony club/local show.

As i said, My horse has some natural ability, You're welcome to come and test your theory that it is dependant on the animal. I'll PM you my address.

But it is an achievement of humans - The fucking horse wouldn't even be breathing if it weren't for humans. The test you watch requires a relationship between the horse and rider, and immense skill on the riders part to get the horse to that level.

"If Equestrian events can be an Olympic event then there is no logical reason why Formula 1 cannot be."

Apart from money, obviously.

As for Usain Bolt, I don't think he would perform to the same level in a pair of trainers from Asda. The cycling team wouldn't do as well on bikes from Halfords. IIRC, their bikes can cost in the region of £20,000.

But you take my point that all performances have inputs other than from the performer that influence the result? I doubt Hoy would want to swap suppot teams (I also doubt he'd be that happy with swapping bikes, but I'm happy to assume that he would be).

One fact that hasn't been mentioned is that sports simply differ profoundly from one another. It is hard to think of one thing that they all have in common. Some, for example, have rather subjective judging criteria compared with the ruthless objectivity of the stopwatch. The fact that different horses constitute an influence on the outcome doesn't undermine the fact that equestrianism is a sport. It would only undermine it if it amounted to an unfairness, and it plainly doesn't: you just don't get horsepeople complaining that they only lost because their horse was less good, because it just isn't a grounds for complaint, since part of their sport is selecting, training, and developing the fitness of a horse. In this way it is a two-stage event, just like the cycling road race: the cycling competitors pedal for hours just to be in a position to compete on good terms in the race's final element, a sprint. Dressage etc are two-stage events also: shaping the horse (for years) then shaping the performance on the day.