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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what Black athletes have....

544 replies

CrispyCod · 04/08/2012 21:21

......that make them so superior in performance. It has to be genetic. I am in awe of them as they appear to glide effortlessly around the track. The Jamaican athletes are just wow! Their speed is just amazing.

OP posts:
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/08/2012 10:41

About x post

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/08/2012 10:47

nkf I agree.

However, sprinters are biologically adapted to very fast running they are likely to have more fast twitch and super fast twitch fibres in their muscles. I just think that there are probably people in most populations that will have the relevant characteristics and that's where talent identification and really hard training makes the difference.

You can have the best ratio of fast twitch fibres in the world but if all you use them for is speeding a slice of pizza to your mouth then you're not going to win many gold medals.

sashh · 10/08/2012 10:49

was this aimed at me?

We are not taking about predisposition to glaucoma for instance, bit the environmental and cultural factors which push people of one ethnicity towards a certain behaviour.

I did say there were many other factors, but comparing it to glaucoma is interesting. As I have said previously if you are performing a lung function test you have to adjust for ethnicity.

Even taking into account all factors to do with wealth, education, training facilities, national pride, opportunities, diet etc etc. Having a large lung capacity is an advantage in a race where you don't breath. Your body has more oxygen available and lactic acid will take longer to build up.

I keep comming back to the documentary. The question was not about whether black people run faster, it was why the 100m final consisted only of descendents of slaves.

PooPooInMyToes · 10/08/2012 10:56

I started reading this thread wondering how long it would take for someone to suggest that it was rascist . . . end of page 2!

There is actual research into it . . . perhaps the scientists doing that are rascist too Hmm

Aboutlastnight · 10/08/2012 11:05

Ssssh

I'm not attacking you, sorry of it came across that way. I just think genetic factors are overstated and the genetic argument dies not stand up to scrutiny.

Why were the sprinters descended from slaves? Maybe look to the environmental and cultural factors in this: maybe genes play a small part but overriding all of this is opportunity and individuals who gave the strength of character and courage and support to pursue this.

Surely there are caucasian populations with greater lung capacity too?

Aboutlastnight · 10/08/2012 11:07

"You can have the best ratio of fast twitch fibres in the world but if all you use them for is speeding a slice of pizza to your mouth then you're not going to win many gold medals."

Indeed

EldritchCleavage · 10/08/2012 13:29

why the 100m final consisted only of descendents of slaves

It didn't, I don't think, not this time or last. It is unlikely the black South African runner or the French runner are descended from slaves.

Someone upthread said 'not all Africans are descended from slaves'. This seems to get things weirdly arse about face. Vanishingly few Africans are descended from slaves, and if they are it will be slavery historically practised in their country of origin by their compatriots. People of the African diaspora in America (North and South) and the Caribbean are almost all descended from slaves, but there are exceptions.

I don't think every black person in Jamaica necessarily went there as a slave. I was told the British moved troublesome populations to Jamaica from Ghana in the 19th century well after the abolition of slavery.

And these things go in cycles. US sprinting used to be dominant. Now it's Jamaica. Another country may develop new talent and blow the slavery hypothesis out of the water.

GrimmaTheNome · 10/08/2012 13:35

I can never understand 'nature vs nurture' debates when nearly always its a combination both. ('nurture' including all developmental and environmental factors).

creighton · 10/08/2012 13:38

i was going to write something sarcastic, but what's the point, you lot carry on indulging your 'science' at our expense.

ALineIsALine · 10/08/2012 13:55

Maybe this is not the place to ask - but has anyone read 'Bounce'? It is basically about how we overestimate genetic influences on those who are amazing at any sport and massively underestimate the power of practice? Thinking of ordering it on Amazon (AFAIK it is not about race per se, it is about how we assume those who do well are genetically gifted in some way).

NoComet · 10/08/2012 14:57

I think for tennis, snooker, playing the violin, the Chinese and table tennis etc. there is a great deal in that theory.

A bit of natural talent and the right environment and temperament to practice.
The best piano player at school had enough natural ability to enjoy practicing and a Mum who found him a very good teacher.

Running seems slightly different, everyone can run. With practice and determination many people can run the London Marathon slowly. Many many people sprint pretty well, look at any football or rugby game.

But to run any distance exceptionally well I think needs more than practice.

I think you do need to be genetically more than slightly better than the majority to choose it as a career.

I don't know any good sprinters, but I have known a couple of good xcountry runners. Neither were particularly sporty or academic, they only went on to train seriously because they were a lot better than everyone else in their school.

CFSKate · 10/08/2012 16:11

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9464821/Usain-Bolt-and-Yohan-Blake-trailblazers-for-Jamaicas-fast-kids-addicted-to-running-as-they-follow-Olympic-heroes.html

"?Talent is not found by chance here any more,? says Dr Blake. ?If you have any running talent, it?s reached the stage now in Jamaica that you are going to be found.?

National competitions begin for children as young as six and the best are enrolled on scholarships at schools with specialist coaches, some of whom have themselves been expertly schooled at the GC. Foster College.

No longer too do the best athletes have to be wooed by the American college scholarship dollar; they can thrive at home."

verlainechasedrimbauds · 10/08/2012 16:23

I read this article some time ago - I think it's pertinent to the thread...

bbc

Serendipity30 · 10/08/2012 16:41

Chocobo actually your posts stirred me to say something, i was just lurking before Smile

Serendipity30 · 10/08/2012 16:47

ChazsBrilliantAttitude:You can have the best ratio of fast twitch fibres in the world but if all you use them for is speeding a slice of pizza to your mouth then you're not going to win many gold medals. this made me laugh, and is so true. Im looking down at my body now and it is the perfect example of this, sigh what could have been .. oh well Smile

Serendipity30 · 10/08/2012 16:53

verlainechasedrimbauds That article is perfect, Black people are not all the same Africa is not a country people it is a continent, therefore we come in all shapes sizes and forms. Black people unfortunately still have to work much harder for the same opportunities as other people, due to innate racism.

Aboutlastnight · 10/08/2012 17:36

Creighton - in what way are we indulging 'our science' at your expense?

creighton · 10/08/2012 19:05

aboutlastnight why don't you pick over what makes white people whatever it is that they are rather than picking over the exotica that is black people. if you had all listened to your friend the scientist colin jackson you would have heard him say that the fast twitch fibres are found in 80% of white people.

poopooinmytoes, yes, scientists can be racist. how dumb of you not to know that? do you think that knowledge is 'pure' and offered without any prejudgement (if that's a real word)?

Aboutlastnight · 10/08/2012 19:17

Did you read my posts?

Also - the poster talking about fast switch fibres was not talking about that in terms of ethnicity. It is an illustration of the point that any ( perceived or real) physiological advantage means nothing without SN environmental or social context.

So I am not treating black people as 'exotica' I am in fact arguing the opposite - that the ops question is the wrong one to ask - and I am angry that ypu have in a roundabout way accused me of racism.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/08/2012 20:03

creighton

This is what I wrote about fast twitch fibres - note the highlighted words
"However, sprinters are biologically adapted to very fast running they are likely to have more fast twitch and super fast twitch fibres in their muscles. I just think that there are probably people in most populations that will have the relevant characteristics and that's where talent identification and really hard training makes the difference."

So I hope its not my post you are talking about as you would be misrepresenting what I said if you were.

CP019 · 10/08/2012 23:16

Group running = v competitive atmosphere (prob a bit like the Jamaican sprinting success, lots of role models to aspire to?)

Plus genetics - otherwise those with west african ancestry would tend to do better in the longer distance running - body type has a lot to do with it.

"Saltin's group has quantified this observation. Compared with Danes, the thinner calves of Kenyans have, on average, 400 grams less flesh in each lower leg. The farther a weight is from the center of gravity, the more energy it takes to move it. Fifty grams added to the ankle will increase oxygen consumption by 1%, Saltin's team calculates. For the Kenyans, that translates into an 8% energy savings to run a kilometer. "We have solved the main problem," declares Henrik Larsen of the Copenhagen center. "Kenyans are more efficient because it takes less energy to swing their limbs." Other scientists say the jury is still out on the Kenyan question. But "I think Saltin is probably the most correct that anyone is at the moment," says physiologist Kathryn Myburgh of the University of Stellenbosch in South Africa, who is exploring the role of Kenyans' training.

However, slim lower legs are not the whole story. Kenyan runners also have a higher concentration of an enzyme in skeletal muscle that spurs high lactate turnover and low lactate production. Saltin says that this results in an "extraordinarily high" capacity for fatty acid oxidation, which helps wring more energy out of the muscles' biochemical reactions. Because intense training alters the body's biochemistry, Saltin says that he can't say for sure whether the ezyme levels are due to genes or training. But he adds, "I think it's genetic." Research in South Africa jibes with the Copenhagen group's findings.

A team led by exercise physiologist Adele Weston of the University of Sydney, Australia, compared black South Africans, whose running strengths are similar to those of Kenyans, with white runners. The two groups had similar VO2 max values?that is, when putting out maximum effort, they used up the same amount of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. But the black runners were more efficient in their oxygen consumption, lasting on a treadmill at maximum speed for twice as long as the whites. As with the Kenyans, the black South African runners accumulated less lactate and had higher levels of key muscle enzymes."

www.jonentine.com/reviews/AAAS_peeringUnderTheHood.htm

creighton · 11/08/2012 09:42

oh dear god, leave us alone

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/08/2012 11:23

creighton

I don't think anyone intended to upset you and I agree that generalisations about populations based on characteristics such as skin colour alone are clearly ridiculous.

Around 19% of the world's population live in China would anyone seriously try to argue that all Chinese people share the same genetic characteristics / physical attributes just because the majority them will have dark hair and brown eyes i.e. nearly 1/5 of the world's population sharing the same genetic characteristics and physical attributes beyond the superficial hair and eye colour.

In some smaller and more isolated populations there may be clearer genetic / physical characteristics but these characteristics may well have been "enhanced / multiplied" by the relatively limited gene pool over a large number of generations.

I am quite happy to do the science on myself. My Dad's family all struggle with their weight, myself included. This may be due solely to diet but this is cross generational and we live in different countries. So I wonder if we have a thrifty gene (I know excuses excuses etc). This becomes a bit more plausible when you consider that my Dad's family have lived in the West of Ireland for hundreds of years and survived the horror of the Irish Potato Famine. Efficient fat storage may have been an advantage when food was scarce both as subsistance farmers prior to the famine and during the famine itself.

NurseBernard · 11/08/2012 22:26

I would just love to know how a single British person would feel in a forum of Australians, discussing the whys are wherefore of British history and culture, all from their Australian armchairs, espousing this theory and that theory, all with a certain assured aplomb.

I bet it would go down really, really badly.

And if you can't see the parallel I'm drawing, then... [rolls eyes]

Aboutlastnight · 11/08/2012 22:45