To wonder what Black athletes have....

[CrispyCod]

......that make them so superior in performance. It has to be genetic. I am in awe of them as they appear to glide effortlessly around the track. The Jamaican athletes are just wow! Their speed is just amazing.

Mo Farah is a legend and I hope his success brings more awareness to his foundation

This thread reminds me of a question on QI once which pointed out that women are better at fishing than men and asked why? Actually there was no reason but everyone assumed there had to be one.

It's as if anyone who is not a white male does excel at something there has to be a reason or some explanation as to why but if white males are generally better at something it is just because they are and nobody thinks to question why. Think it is about ego tbh.

Another post illustrating my point.

You are unable to make any kind of point about genetics, so you change the topic of conversation.

very good point chocobo.
you should feel sorry for a country like jamaica where the only sport of significance is sprinting. nothing else gets a look in. if a jamaican has a talent elsewhere it will not be exploited as nothing other than cricket and netball gets a look in.

Chocobo - there has to be a reason, or some explanation for everything!

It can be genetic/biological, historical, economic, cultural or most likely some combination.

But it is legitimate to ask.

I'm coming to this thread slightly late but my tuppence worth is that it's an interesting discussion and one well worth having on MN where people are open to admitting ignorance and welcome being educated. I for one have absolutely no idea what the answer is to the question the OP is posing and the varying answers on this thread have opened my eyes to possibilities I wouldn't have even considered.

I agree that some of the comments upthread have made me feel uncomfortable - discussing relative IQs of races for instance. I don't necessarily agree that there are many overtly racist comments on the thread but then, I'm not black. I think it's interesting that those who think the comments are racist are accused of "pulling the race card" - what card do you think they should pull? Those posters are directly affected by the assertions made regarding their genetic make up, physical attributes, cultural history so shouldn't their opinions guide us in what is acceptable and what is not?

I'm horrified at the vitriol on this thread. This isn't a discussion about why one ethnic group is crap at something - this is a discussion about why there appears to be a tendency for top level sportsmen and women from certain parts of the world to have the edge over top level sportswomen from other parts of the world.

It is quite clear from some of the early responses to the thread that people are perfectly capable of recognising that it isn't a simple equation of skin colour = athletic prowess. There have been mentions of the altitudes of some countries, of the different muscle types produced by certain nations etc. The impact of socio-economic factors has been discussed. People are genuinely interested in the science and research behind this difference, if indeed there is a difference based in phsyiology rather than culture/environment.

There are differences between people from different parts of the world. To deny this would be daft. There are some parts of the world where the people are very small. There are parts of the world which tend to produce tall people. There are parts of the world where it is unusual to see large-breasted women. There are parts of the world which have very distinctive facial features. We are all products of our environment and sport might well be one of the few ways in which the extent of the differences can be evaluated, if someone could come up with a way of factoring out all the other complicating factors.

It is vital to understand differences between different ethnic backgrounds. There are diseases to which certain individuals are more susceptible. There was a recent suggestion that optimum gestation period is different for caucasion and afro-carribean women, meaning that some women should be induced earlier than the current guidelines. Different blood groups can be traced back to different parts of the world - I have one of the rarer UK blood groups and this is almost certainly due to having a recent ancestor from the baltic region.

We are all different and, while we are still a society with enough issues to make it necessary to be alert for casual discrimination and deal with it when it arises, I don't think it is beneficial in the long run for certain differences to be completely taboo as discussion points. By effectively ring-fencing skin colour when you are talking about differences between people, it can seem like you are suggesting that there is something wrong with being different in that respect.

I have never believed that equality comes from pretending we are all the same - I believe that it comes from accepting that we are all different and allowing everyone to achieve the maximum potential of their own unique state.

How do you know what the ethnicity of the posters is CashnCarry? I know for certain that a number of the posters on here complaining that the topic is racist are white British. Complaining about the topic is a very different matter to people quite legitimately complaining about racism in individual posts.

Excellent postkungfu

Kungfu a well written and balanced summary.

Well, I don't know the ethnicity of any of the posters for certain but I just think it's odd that if someone says they find a comment racist, there's sometimes a bit of a hysterical reaction with people falling over themselves to use language like "PC gone mad" and "pulling the race card" - it's quite possible that commnts can be perceived as racist without there being any malicious intent on the part of the poster concerned I think.

Equally, someone can perceive something being racist because of their background and history regardless of their ethnic background. I'm thinking of those posters who are married to people from a similar background as athletes. Does that make any sense?

I must have missed the bit where someone said the topic was racist - there are nearly 250 posts so I didn't read them all Anyway, my point still stands that racism is subjective so we mightn't recognise it where another would.

Kungfu what an excellent post!

I don't think some people here are having issues with pointing out differences etc., however bringing up things like IQ or larger nostrils or bigger pores etc., well that's .

Many, many posters, especially earlier on, have given excellent responses.

Cashncarry I do think, that your post makes perfect sense. Thank you.

Michael Johnson's programme was specifically about slavery and sprinters. I remember one part about the slave ships, that only about 10% survived all the way to Jamaica. I can't imagine being packed in as a slave, and around me 9 out of 10 people dying.

Thank you worldcitizen - I appreciate that! I could feel myself getting a little caught up in my own semantics

I do agree with Kungfupanda to a certain extent but I think it's important to bring that discussion totally up to date with the current state of play. Historically, I agree that the physical difference between different ethnicities has been more marked and therefore it was easier in a sense to draw parallels and compare and contrast so to speak.

However, the world has become significantly smaller to the extent that in the vast majority of countries, the mixing of genetic pools has become such that it is more difficult to draw those kind of distinctions. There's also a history of races from less developed countries coming off badly in such comparisons with a lot of historical psuedo scientific work discussing the physical imperfections of certain "lower" races - I'm thinking in particular of the scientist who asserted that those from African races were in some way less developed mentally due to the shape and structure their faces etc. I'm sure a more knowledgeable MNer will correct me if I'm wrong.

My point is that if you come from a race which has historically suffered from a negative feedback with this type of discussion, it's entirely plausible that the hairs on your neck may stand up when this type of discussion occurs and you may automatically feel defensive and therefore take offence where none was necessarily intended. Those comments add a different perspective and should, I think, be taken on board in a constructive sense rather than simply be poo poo'd for being over-sensitive (I'm not suggesting you did this Kungfupanda btw!).

Interesting topic, rather irritating thread.

I think genetics plays a part, why is Michael Phelps so good at swimming? Part of this has been attributed to his physique, his arm span is disproportionate to his height, he has huge feet, a longer body and short legs, he has hyper-mobile ankles. Physical attributes do play a part and therefore there is a genetic influence. I'm white but I don't have the same physique as every other white person

However culture is such a key component. Dh is Jamaican, he mainly grew up there and we've spent lots of time there. The attitude and culture around sport particularly athletics is different to here. Why don't all the other Caribbean islands produce the same quantity and quality of athletes if it is down to the slavery aspect? The fact that running and athletics are mainly cheap and easy to take part in as well as once success in an area is gained by a country the sport gets much more recognition (imagine there may be an increase in this country in rowing now) means that those sports are more likely to continue to succeed in those countries as there is such focus on them.

cashncarry, I believe that in most cases, and her on MN possibly even more than most , there is NO intention to be racially /ethnically offensive.

And of course, the ones on the receiving end or the ones being discussed and wondered about, are at the end the ones who have the right to say, if they feel it's offensive or not.

And it was mentioned here, maybe even you cash, that lots of so-called White British put an end to ignorance or crossing the line very quickly here on MN, and rightly so.

Ruby genetics plays a large part, and that is not even disputed in the sports scientists world.
And your description of Michael Phelps' physical attributes and the reasons for his success are spot-on, however in the U.S. you will find lots of African-Americans/Blacks with similar physical attributes.

This thread is great, I had to take myself out for a moment, but I am glad I kept reading.

I was annoyed that it is simply assumed Blacks are for genetic reasons not good at swimming or couldn't be as successful, and when it comes to swimming, this is simply incorrect, especially if one would look at the Black U.S. American population.

There are lots of socio-economic and historical/societal reasons for not having more Blacks/African-Americans in other sports for which they are also genetically/biologically build well.

Rowing would also be a sport where U.S. American Blacks would be very well-equipped for, however this sport is in the U.S. a typical White/upper middle class sport (don't want to list all the reasons now) and many African-Americans have also lots of contempt in choosing that sport, due to historical past, if you get my drift.

I could go on about gymnastics, ice-skating, soft-ball etc.

RubyFakeNails - the Michael Johnson programme also talked about the culture of athletics in Jamaica.

You point out that success leads to more interest and more success - I know there's already another thread (which I can't find now) about getting more state school children into sports, but your point makes me wonder what will happen here, as we are successful in things like rowing, which I imagine is quite expensive, so how are we going to get more state school pupils into expensive sports?

Rowing and equestrian sports are quite elitist. It would be good to see that opened up to more kids.

i don't think that there have been many well argued posts on this thread just a load of tiresome and offensive speculation. it may be interesting for you all to investigate why blacks/jamaicans are this or that for your own entertainment but i don't think that we will get any benefit from your non scientific musings.

Kung fu good post. However, it isn't quite so easy to separate genetic influences from environmental ones. For example, the perception is that Japanese people are short but since there has been a move to a more western style diet there has been an increase in the height of younger Japanese people (and also an increase in obesity).

Over 1bn people live in China and in India these are both very diverse populations.

I remember reading a study in to African distance runners and they had yet to find any genetic basis. They highlighted social and cultural factors and environmental factors such as altitude.
bjsm.bmj.com/content/34/5/391.full

world I was trying not to make my point too long. DH and I have discussed this quite often before and its one of the things that has always come up, Dhs family being a prime example.

All are black. There is a little bit of asian ancestry mixed in on one side but he has a large family so thats only a small eprentage. There are short stubby men and women with 'thick' figures, there are very tall slender men and women, some are clearly athletic in their figures, 1 of my SILs has really broad shoulders and with really muscular arms. The point i was trying to make is that Michael Phelps attributes are specific to him not his race, and therefore its the combination of physiology and culture.

i haven't read all the thread but has it been mentioned that 'kenyan' distance runners are not from all over kenya, they're almost all from a small town called Iten in the rift valley. many people have gone there to try to see what the 'secret' is and the conclusions are usually something to do with the poverty, diet, hard physical childhood, group training runs, peer pressure and they take it really really seriously, running as a 'job' rather than a hobby. a young kenyan can keep his entire family if he wins some big city races, whereas a young british person will probably be worse off if they choose to run rather than work in a professional job.

on the other hand then there's caribbean sprinting, which is clearly a totally different issue, the only thing caribbean sprinters and kenyan distance runners have in common is the colour of their skin, it's like comparing spaniards and norweigians.... there is an interesting theory about the part slavery played in caribbean and black american sprinting, but it's also cultural.

personally i think it's at least 99% cultural. there's one black man on the US swimming team, but plenty of tall, slim black basketball players in the US, why are more of them not on swim teams? there's no physical reason.

Ruby I totally assumed that you were of course seeing the bigger picture