to think that taxpayer funded schools SHOULD use qualified teachers?

[TalkinPeace2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19017544

So Academies are now free to leave our children to be taught by cheap unqualified people
potentially jeapordising their chances at competing with the best in the world
just because the Dfe is determined to break the unions and the LEAs, not because of any sound educational reasons.

Bojangles
I will never EVER defend Bliar or Broon
They spent lots and lots of money on education.
Sadly the money did not exist - they were borrowing from the children they purported to be educating.

The core problem is that "parental choice" is dangerous bollocks and "competition" is a way to hand profits to tax dodging bar stewards (Mapeley steps and HMRC case in point)

Gove has some excellent ideas - the way the ebacc was brought was crass, but the light it has shone was well needed
but NOW he needs to be reined in HARD to let things settle.

OK Badgercub I apologise. It is just that you reacted so vehemently to my original post about the image of the teaching profession. The thing is that I wasn't actually critcizing the profession itself but the image of it. There are a minority of people who perpetuate a certain image of whinging and victimisation. I won't take that back but I am sorry if I offended you.

I do not want to criticise the profession at all. why would I if I am about to embark on a PGCE? I have spent a long time being an architect and I think I could do better things with my day.

I think Gove is a complete tosser. I thought Eric Pickles (Communities and Local Government) was bad but Gove takes the biscuit.

The difference between the results of Eton and the 'comp down the road' cannot be measured by comparing the amount of qualified teachers to unqualified teachers and stating that somehow unqualified staff improve results.

Why would Ms Double First in Physics from Cambridge want to work in a challenging school for £13k as an unqualified teacher? I can see why she may want to work at Eton but at a comp? She'd be paid much less than her colleagues and have less career progression for doing the same work.

Ms Double First from Cambridge would have to be paid a starting salary this around the same level as a head of year or a head of department or more. The extra money to pay her salary would have to come from somewhere, so in order to get a few Ms and Mr Double Firsts in for some subjects, schools would have to sacrifice highly qualified and experienced teachers in others.

Our children deserve to be taught by qualified individuals. I am not a teacher but I am prepared to accept that this Country has been ruined by back door entry schemes to all professions - accountancy, law, nursing, teaching. Professions have never been closed to those holding appropriate qualifications - they are now open to those without appropriate qualifications. Little wonder that this Country is falling behind the rest of the developed World!

handstandCrabForwardRollGold
maybe mrs double first dose not want to work in a comp not because of the money maybe its because she dose not want to be spat and sexually harassed by students who in some schools are left to run wild or maybe mrs double dose not want to work with other teachers that are shocking but cant be sacked working with poor staff gives you double the work

Fact only 17 teachers have been sacked for incomptiance in the last 10 years now compare that to any other comprable field it just dosent ring true its nit always about money mostly its about work amtosphere

In my experience, staff placed on capability procedures often leave due to stress - they won't count as having been sacked, but they aren't teaching any more.

The figures don't include this, more likely, scenario.

Perhaps Mr Gove ought to spend sone time working out how to retain the trained teachers he has got, rather than bringing in untrained ones to prop the system up?

The best teaching is about 3 things, imo: personality/talent/vocation + subject knowledge + training in classroom management, how people learn, trouble shooting, etc

Of course someone who has 2/3 of those could be a good teacher - just not the best, maybe.

When there is high unemployment and fewer people able to afford to go to university or teacher-training college, it makes perfect sense for the govt to try and cut some corners and get an adult in front of a class to keep that class contained for an hour or so. (Cynical, moi?)

Also, as an earlier poster said, Gove wants to give more power to head teachers, because then he can shoot him/her down in flames when things go wrong. It's all about less responsibility for the govt and more for the individual - no great surprise, since this is Tory ideology.

But the main reason for this, as someone said earlier, is to make it easier for people who want to start up their own schools. Less red tape = worse terms and conditions for teachers, fewer qualifications swilling around in the staff room, even more power to the head and all in all a much less predictable outcome for the children.

On the other hand, there will be far more diversity when everyone has a different school experience. It's just a pity about the ones who will be even worse off than they are now, when all the safeguards (qualifications, teaching unions) are removed.

And teaching unions work for the children too, yes they do. A happy teacher is a happy class.

If pay and working conditions in Academies were better, then they would have no issue with hiring and retaining qualified teachers.

The fact that Academies ARE having issues with no-one wanting to work there, and with the experienced staff leaving, whether through poor SMT leadership or through being bullied and forced out as they cost too much, having worked their way up the pay scale and therefore being an EXPERIENCED teacher, surely shows that the way some Academies are being run is NOT in the best interests of the CHILDREN that attend that school.

And after the Academy has lost (in one way or another) their experienced staff, and replaced them with inexperienced, unqualified staff, that does not leave the majority of pupils in a good learning environment.

Migsy - you are a qualified Architect. You have decided to go into teaching. Rather than take a post at an Academy without training, you have opted to do a PGCE. Why shouldn't others who wish to change profession do the same thing? Would you walk into a classroom on 4th September this year and attempt to start teaching a mixed ability class with no prior training? No? That is my point, you can see that teacher training is necessary to enable you (and others changing profession like you) to teach effectively.

I'm quite sure that all these people saying that it is not a problem WOULD have an issue with this were THEIR DC in a mixed ability class at their local Comp, with DC's with SEN or behavioural issues, or English as a Second language, in the same classroom, and THEIR DC was being taught by an unqualified teacher in THAT situation.

This is a fantastic piece of writing about QTS. He talks absolute sense, is a Literacy expert, writer, blogger and - most importantly - Headteacher (who still teaches) and I respect him enormously.

Read it if you are interested in this debate.

I teach in a recently converted academy. So far, there has been very little change. The academy chain (I know) that we are part of claims tonne committed to upholding the Teachers' Pay & Conditions document. So far, I have no reason to doubt this, though I am aware I may be being naive. In fact the only change, from a P&C point of view is that we have all been provided with private health cover. Three teachers left at the end of the year - one because she was relocating with her new partner, one for a promotion and one to work in a faith school. I don't think scaremongering about how ALL academies are shockingly bad and are therefore bound to lose all their qualified teachers is helpful.

UNhelpful!

No, I did mean helpful- as in I don't think it is helpful... Sorry - neighbours burglar alarm kept going off last night.

It's annoying if you are a qualified teacher with a good degree because you're treated like you don't exist! Popular wisdom suggests you either have a third and couldn't find a proper job or you have a first and are so amazing you can dispense with learning how to be a teacher as your firstness will rub off onto the pupils through osmosis or something.

mrbojangles how is it fault of the other teachers if teachers get sexually harassed? How would a new teacher who has never taught before know who was a poor teacher or not? What if Ms double first isn't any good? Could she even go on capability if she isn't a qualified teacher? I doubt it as it is linked to the teaching standards, which wouldn't apply to her as she isn't qualified!

Itchy, that was a very good piece of writing - thanks for the link. He makes a lot of sense.

I don't think for one minute that there will be a rush to employ people off the street (nor would they stay long in their jobs). But some schools are desperate, and will resort to this.

And I also value hugely the contributions that 'unqualified' native speakers of foreign languages, music, sports, arts, business, and IT specialists have always made to our schools. It gives the kids a lovely boost, to have someone else apart from their normal teacher called in for a session or two. It makes them feel valued and is often inspiring. But no-one - no-one - can be inspiring day in day out. Also, when looking to employ someone, schools usually want them to be able to teach at least two subjects. (Has this been said before? I've just read the first 4 pages. Sorry).

The 'policy tourism' he talks about (looking at what other countries do and more or less arbitrarily trying out the same things without considering the context) is a really bad way to go about long-term policy making. What is so ironic is that the govt tells us all the time how standards are dreadful, but instead of following the example of Finland, who have great results, they go for the USA model, which imo will ensure that 'standards' do indeed start to fall. Bonkers.

And this was good:

'It?s what Hargreaves and Fullan describe as a ?business capital? view of teaching which views ?good teaching as technically simple? as opposed to a ?professional capital? view which deems ?good teaching as technically sophisticated and difficult?.'

CowthyMow You are right. I would prefer to spend £9000 training than attempt to enter the profession unqualified. In order to get onto a PGCE you need to have undertaken some classroom experience. In doing this I met a huge range of pupils from backgrounds that I have never had any contact with before. I saw lots of teaching styles and learned something about behaviour management. I have loads to learn and I would not be at all confident standing in front of a class without proper training.

Somehow though, I don't think schools will be rushing to recruit non-qualified teachers.

That is unless the academy offered me proper, structured, on the job training.

If schools have to save money (which they will when the new funding formula takes effect) then the wage bill will need to be examined as this is where most of the money goes at the moment. You can have bigger classes, fewer TAs, fewer support staff, fewer managers, fewer teachers and/or you can pay your staff less by changing the pay scales, replacing experienced staff with inexperienced staff and perhaps by employing unqualified staff to do the work that qualified staff used to do.

Pointing out Eton et al use unqualified staff provides this model with legitimacy.

Academies round here put existing staff on standard pay and conditions and the LA have tried to ensure that these stay for existing and new staff. I know some academies have set their own pay scales, particularly for senior management posts which appear better paid than in maintained schools.

So the tachers and TAs on standard pay and the senior management posts are better paid. That would be right.

But the main reason for this, as someone said earlier, is to make it easier for people who want to start up their own schools.

But isn't that a Free School rather than an Academy? I thought Free schools could already use unqualified teachers.

YABU, no more to say as contributed to several of these threads before and they are pointless.

So why bother to contribute at all? No one has for over a week