to think that taxpayer funded schools SHOULD use qualified teachers?

[TalkinPeace2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19017544

So Academies are now free to leave our children to be taught by cheap unqualified people
potentially jeapordising their chances at competing with the best in the world
just because the Dfe is determined to break the unions and the LEAs, not because of any sound educational reasons.

I don't think I agree about it being better to have olympic athletes teaching sport, etc.

I am unqualified and I "teach" music at primary. I wish I had more teacher training - I never wish I had better instrumental skills - the more expertise people have in music the more likely they are to have fixed ideas about constitutes a child progressing in music IME (don't write in, I know this is not universal). I consider myself a leader, but not a teacher - I simply don't have the same level of responsibility as a classroom teacher.

As for sport, I'm so glad my uncoordinated son has been taught this year by a male teacher who confesses to being rubbish at sport himself and not very interested in it. My son has progressed in sport so much this year :) If he'd gone to the local football club, he'd have been exposed to more skilled football players, but I think he'd have progressed less.

Passion for the subject and skill in it has to be secondary to the communication skills. I think there's room for unqualified people like me but I'd support the name "teacher" being reserved for people with identifiable qualifications - like the driving licence example that someone gave above.

I do think it should be easier though to fire a bad teacher though.

As mollymole has pointed out a retired coach would be a coach in athletics, swimming, football etc. would you rotate them around the different schools? would these retired coaches want that? How would they deal with the ones that didn't want to P.E or would the qualified teachers get them?

I have no problem with your FiL holding your children and friends (much different to a classroom) riveted by various court exploits and that would be fine in a classroom as long as it is kept within the context of that damn sylabus.

Labour has always been against grammer schools why would that change that policy?
Church schools are very much still allowed they can even set there own entrance criteria, is it any wonder that they do better than a school that has to be completely inclusive.

As for changes
We don't know what the chnages to KS1/2 will have
We don't know what the changes to KS4 will have
yet we are contemplating changes to KS3

When the house of cards falls down due to too many changes too soon who will get the blame? you don't need to be a genius to know that Gove will be many many miles away.

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but having just read some aspects Mrbojangles1 of your post I have had to respond.....

firstly - as many posters on here have stressed again and again - teaching a couple of people who want to learn is one thing, the reality of teaching in a comp is another!

No one is saying that all qualified teachers are fantastic at their jobs but neither are 100% of people in any field.

now to the main reasons why I have joined in!

if there was a chance for your child at GCSE level getting taught HE by A chef that has worked in world class restaurants or ran their own restaurant how can that be bad (I have replaced the poor spelling )
whilst no one will argue that this experience would be fantastic, would this chef be able to teach the theory required for the qualification to every ability level? Would this chef be able to teach exam technique to every ability? I could go on and a produce a whole list of questions but I doubt that you will ever agree that HE is more than just cooking

Just on a side not my fil is a brilliant speaker had my young son and his mates riveted at Christmas with court room drama showed them the wig and all the garb in the end we had to tell the boys grandpa has had enough now
again - this is not a class full of students whose ability stretches to all extremes, not a class who have to learn the different cases to use in an essay, not a class who have to learn how to structure their work in order to gain a grade; being able to hold the attention of a few boys with tales is not educating them

I could continue, but I would just be making the same point. Many, many schools/teachers invite specialists in to aid their learning. For instance my school do use the local theatre/dance schools etc to help to enhance the experience, but these specialists will be the first to admit that they are able to teach a class of 30 all the aspects of the curriculum

Mrbojangles, all the schools I've been associated with as a teacher (and as a student) have used specialists to deliver some aspects of the curriculum. This is especially true for PSHE, Citizenship and Enterprise Education. Schools tend to supplement teaching in a number of subjects with visiting speakers, school trips and activity days.

Children need to be taught by someone with expertise in their subject AND expertise in teaching and learning. IMHO the experience of completing ITT will make someone a better teacher (a good unqualified teacher would be a very good qualified teacher, an unsatisfactory unqualified teacher a satisfactory qualified one).

MrBojangles1

Coming back to this point
" if there was a chance for your child at GCSE level getting taught HE by A chef that has worked in world class restaurants or ran their own restaurant how can that be bad "

At my school they can because the H.E/H&C/teacher decided to retrain to come a teacher. In fact all of the DT department have retrained to become teachers. Most of the science department have experience in various fields of science outside of school.

Sounds like it would be a good idea to have expert "guest speakers" to liven things up a bit though. I'd have liked that.

I'm not sure how successful even the best teacher is at getting someone who really doesn't want to be there to learn anything. I wish we appreciated education more.

I think a mentoring scheme linking up members of various professions with students/schools would certainly work very well; although this would be in addition to, rather than instead of qualified teachers.

Academies are only using unqualified teachers because they can't attract enough qualified ones.

I know a great butcher. I bet he could take out an appendix nicely. Just show him a worksheet.

Teaching requires skill and training. Just because some people do it badly doesn't change that. Because the skill doesn't seem visible to untrained eyes, it doesn't mean it's not there.

To those of you suggesting that it would be good IF experts were brought in... Take a look at what is happening in your local school. This year, in my dept (I teach drama, but an actually qualified to teach that AND English- as an aside for whoever it was complaining that drama teachers teach English. My degree & PGCE were both in both subjects) I have had a great deal of input from "experts". For example, the artistic director of our excellent local theatre came in to run an auditions masterclass with my 6th form group, three actors have come in fortnightly to run a project with some Yr 8 students, we've had a one-man show, and the actor also ran a Q&A with KS4 students afterwards. Similarly, our PE, English and Business Studies depts have had a number of experts in on a regular basis. We also have links with one particular business who send in mentors.

I suspect we're not unusual in this. However, all of this costs- very few do this on a voluntary basis, and also the vast majority say that they wouldn't want to manage a class by themselves. When I have visitors in, it's as we'll as me, not instead of.

The best teacher I ever know (by a long long way, she was absolutely brilliant) was completely unqualified. No teacher training, no degree, nothing. She was french and taught french and did some after school 'french club' classes at some state schools. She also pointed out all the spelling and grammar errors made by the other french teachers and worried about the quality of the classes given by the professional teachers.

My children learn loads under her, she's left now unfortunately, so they're back to the mediocre teaching of the qualified teachers and their learning has slowed a lot.

"Teaching requires skill and training. Just because some people do it badly doesn't change that."

Very well put, nkf.

kendodd

she sounds really nice and really really professional.

Makes you wonder what she was saying about the kids and parents behind there backs.

Boney, so are you saying she shouldn't have pointed out the mistakes the school made?

When she left lots of parents asked about her and the school said they had tried to keep her, offering to do her admin etc but she had a family business and she really needed to be doing that.

Kendodd
"so are you saying she shouldn't have pointed out the mistakes the school made?"

That would depend on how the mistakes where pointed out
and if she was that worried about the quality of the teaching she should have gone to the head not through the parents and pupils.

All she has done is colour your perception of the teaching of the other teachers.

She didn't go through the parents and pupils. She tried to 'sell' her after school french clubs to other schools who mostly weren't interested and would say that they had french covered, with words spelt badly on the walls, this made her worry about the quality of the french teaching. She never mentioned which schools they were. I only know this because I also new her socially and asked if she worked in other schools.

But yes, you must be right, she has only coloured my perception of the teaching of the other teachers, after all she had no qualifications so she much have in fact been rubbish. Silly me.

"after all she had no qualifications so she much have in fact been rubbish."

That is your perception of what I said.
In fact from the change of in your last post it would seem that her concerns where of a more general nature and linked to just one school but many in the area.
so problems with schools not just a school.

But she has coloured your perception of the other teachers in your school though as the teaching is now "mediocre" your word not mine.

Well maybe the issue then is schools need teachers with more varied life experince and not just their degree and more professionals need to come in to work with teachers

Its a shame schools dont tap into to the various professions that parents have and use them

In my childs old primary school one of the childrens brother was a baker (no he didnt wirk in greggs) and he used to come in once a term and make bread and cakes with the kids.

But i do think the system is not working if it was their wouldnt be a made scramble eevery year for a few outstanding schools

The sum of it is their are some god awful teachers and some god awful parenting in my view these are the issue that need to be sorted no point pretending otherwise some schools no matter how good the teachers are the parents are just woeful and vise a versa

The french teaching is mediocre, not necessarily the teachers fault though, they just don't have the knowledge she has, she's a native speaker, they're not. Also she was absolutely fantastic and mesmerized the children she was teaching, it wasn't just mine that learn loads with her.

Is it so impossible that somebody without teaching qualifications (or any qualifications) can be so good at something?

BTW the school my children go to also has some great qualified teachers, one of whom I was so impressed with I nominated for a teaching award.

Mrbojangles1

"Its a shame schools dont tap into to the various professions that parents have and use them"

Most schools do. Parents, specialists, ex students (working, Apprentice, college and uni).

"But i do think the system is not working if it was their wouldnt be a made scramble eevery year for a few outstanding schools "

Ofsted is not the be all and end all of schools, an outstanding school may not be right for your child, a good or satisfactory (soon to be requires improvement) school could be better.

"The sum of it is their are some god awful teachers and some god awful parenting in my view these are the issue that need to be sorted no point pretending otherwise some schools no matter how good the teachers are the parents are just woeful and vise a versa"

Absolutely, no arguement from me.

Mrbojangles - did you not bother to read my post? Schools DO use professionals. My classes have been enhanced by this on a number of occasions this year, and it has been excellent. However, very few people will do it out of some feeling of philanthropy and therefore schools have to pay for it.

The argument that schools should use people who have industry experience is valid, but again, it comes down to money. DH is a management consultant. He has no desire to be a teacher but would doubtless be an excellent guest speaker for, say, a 6th form group. His hourly rate is £174. Not sure that any industry professionals would be willing to give that up for an unqualified teacher's salary.

Kendodd

"The french teaching is mediocre, not necessarily the teachers fault though, they just don't have the knowledge she has, she's a native speaker, they're not. Also she was absolutely fantastic and mesmerized the children she was teaching, it wasn't just mine that learn loads with her."

then report, complain and make a nuisance of yourself until it is fixed.

"Is it so impossible that somebody without teaching qualifications (or any qualifications) can be so good at something?"

No it is not impossible to believe that someone without teaching qualifications could be good at teaching, but it doesn't mean that everyone will be good and how do you weed them out without putting the pupils education at more risk.

Could someone with no qualifications be good at teaching? that would depend on what they were teaching and why they have no qualifications.

Are you a teacher by chance Boney? Married to a teacher? You seem very hostile to the idea of non teachers being good at teaching, better even then many qualified teachers.

I am not a qualified teacher but have done some sessions doing certain work to groups of children with great results, so i personally don't think to 'teach' you need to have a specific qualifications but I do think all the crappy admin stuff and organising your day and dealing with all the politics does require a certain level of training and I imagine that's what a specific teaching qualification, well erm, teaches you :)

"Is it so impossible that somebody without teaching qualifications (or any qualifications) can be so good at something?"

No it is not impossible to believe that someone without teaching qualifications could be good at teaching, but it doesn't mean that everyone will be good and how do you weed them out without putting the pupils education at more risk.

I expect they might be a lot easier to weed out than crappy teachers who seem almost impossible to sack.

Its the holidays and yet teachers are stillbeing belittled and moaned about, I (and others) will defend our profession. If thst is classed as bitching and moaning then so be it.

All professions will defend themselves and so they should. That is not what I was talking about. What I am referring to is all these allegations of bullying I hear and of student mentors being nasty and unhelpful. I've heard stuff like this on internet forums and in real life.

In addition, when I read TES, loads of the articles are written in a "poor us" tone. Someone above even suggested that teachers should be paid the same as doctors. What does the profession a disservice is that some teachers try to persuade the nation that they work harder than anyone else and should be paid more for what they do. Coming from another profession, I think these ideas are out of touch with reality. Everyone wants to be paid more but not everyone will claim that they should be paid more than, or that they work harder than, other professions.