Schools - WWYD

[baconcrisps]

DH and I are atheist and have always believed that it would be hypocritical of us to attend church purely with a view to DD (age 3) attending a particular school. We do not, however, have any issues with DD attending a church school and learning about the Christian faith, singing hymns, taking part in asssemblies etc.

DD is 3 and will be starting at the nursery of our closest school in Sept. It is a C of E school that Ofsted judge as outstanding and the school is heavily oversubscribed. We did not expect her to get a nursery place here, and if I wasn't pregnant she would have stayed at the private preschool she currently goes to. However having got the place at the school nursery this will help massively financially and being local is also much more convenient.

We have to apply for school places in January and currently fall within the 15th out of 18 criteria for places. Usually all places are gone by the 13th or 14th criteria so it is incredibly unlikely that DD will be offered a school place there on the basis of living 2 minutes walk away. The next nearest school seems fine, we have always assumed she would go there and been happy with that. It is a much more diverse intake, higher free meals, higher SEN, higher English not first language, higher numbers starting and leaving within the school year. I didn't think I had a problem with that. However now it is getting closer, maybe I do. I also think I am disrupting DD enough by removing her from her preschool where her friends are so she can go to the CofE nursery and then will be moving her again, while her friends stay there, to go to another school.

Technically it is too late for us to do a U-turn on our lack of beliefs and start going to church - you are meant to attend for 18 months before applying to get in on one of the church criteria. However DD's (new) CM said she knows of at least one child whose parents only attended for a few months and the vicar (?) signed off on the form. Now I am struggling - should I put aside my view that education should not be dependent on a parent's religion (or willingness to turn up at a place of religion) or should I do whatever is within my power to get my DD a place at a good school?

[mummytofive]

we are c of e, but our nearest school is a catholic school. my dd got in on a low intake year, we were in catagory 5 as practising christian. skip 2 years, our ds is in a high birth rate year, we are still in catagory 5.. he got a place due to being a statemented child, but 4 children with siblings at the school have not got a place. we live on the same street as the school, one of his friends who didnt get a place backgarden backs on to us. as it is, he is now going to a special school. skip one year to the future and i am now in a predicament of ds3 not getting a place as thou he has a sibling we are still catagory 5 and the birth rate has increased again.. i am looking to a future of having 3 children in 3 different primary schools. cant move eldest as no school places at the other local schools are full in her year. what i am saying, is if you decide to do this, look at the admission criteria over the last few years and ask how far down did they go with the list in these years and what is expected in the next few years as your dc2 will need to follow and that means you sign up to the church till dc2 is in or have a nail bitting future, like me! good luck.

[MrsDimples]

YABU

Faith schools should be kept for children from families that believe in the faith.

[BuntyPenfold]

Christians are meant to be spreading the faith aren't they?

So faith schools should be admitting non-Christians, in order to try to convert them.

[Sirzy]

They do admit non-christians Bunty.

the issue here is the OP wanting to lie to push herself up the admission criteria.

[BuntyPenfold]

OP God will know you are lying :)

Let's see whether He stops you....

[waterlego6064]

Good point tiggytape. In fact, the aspects mentioned in the OP (learning about the Christian faith, singing hymns, taking part in assemblies) are all present in my DCs' non-faith school.

Do have a look at your other school OP. My DCs attend a school with high rates of FSM and pupils with SEN. It is a wonderful school. The pastoral care is excellent and behaviour is good. Without intending to stealth boast, my DD is very able academically and we feel she is being sufficiently challenged at the school. We couldn't be happier.

[AnotherTeacherMum]

I am also an atheist and my dc go to a CE school- we didn't need to do the 'pretend to be practising CE' business because it is a VC school and admissions are set by the LA not school, hence it's just done on distance. Its our local school and very much part of the community.

I feel very strongly that the taxes of non- believers pay for the school just as much as those of believers and so we should all have equal access to it.

If religious groups want to have schools that they can exclude people from that would be fine- if they and not the taxpayer paid for it.

In my area there is a CE, a RC and a community school. My taxes fund them all equally so why should I only have access to one out of three.

I do have to say that whilst I explain to my children that Mummy and Daddy don't believe in God/ religion we teach them to be VERY respectful of the beliefs of those that do- my parents are very committed catholics and I understand how important their faith is to them.

[complexo]

You know what?
My child goes to a community school exactly like the one you are describing, my hypocrate 'friends' felt 'so sorry' for us (read felt superior) and I agonized for months. But...the school could have not been better and the end of the school year was quite emotional and sad. Yes there are lots of poor people and muslins but the teachers and all the members of the staff work very hard and they are really lovely and kind to he children as well as strict when they need to be. My child made loads of friends and she has been so happy that I don't care how much their parents earn, what language they speak a home or if they take free school dinner.
But if your child is too precious to attend a mixed school so fake it and pretend you are religious...lots os other parents do but that is not one of the things I want to teach my child to do...
Anyway, I have been through lots os Ofsted Inspections and know other people and institutions who had too and theirpersonal stories...Ofsted for me does not cunt for much.
And I am a Christian by the way.

[complexo]

oh and the Chrstmas celebrations at my child's mixed school were a lot better than the catholic one, said my friend who attendd both and her daughter goes to the catholic...

[baconcrisps]

Last post (for now).
We would not lie. Either about having faith or the length of time we had been attending. We would simply have turned up, filled out the forms truthfully and seen what happened (whether they processed us as cat 15 or bent their rules and as cat 3. We would not have asked them to bend rules.)
Would not discourage dd from attending church if she wishes.
We would not complain about a christian school prompting a christian message.

Thank you for all commentary, we have (I think) decided NOT to attend church. We will visit both schools and may still apply as a Cat 15. As a previous poster said, it may be that the time I heard about rules having been bent could have previous church attendance so this could all have been pointless pontificating. Plus we would then have same dilemma with dc2 as others have pointed out.

Dd will attend the c of e nursery as we can't afford to keep her in preschool. Hopefully she will not be too disrupted by too many changes.

[BsshBossh]

You'd bound to be found out eventually and other (genuinely C of E & practicing) parents/guardians/teachers at the school might be offended or angry or simply at you. In my DD's RC school, all the parents of her friends see each other on Sunday at Church; so do her teacher and head teacher.

[baconcrisps]

Grr I lied about last post!
complexion dd IS precious, but I would not have been faking religion. The admissions criteria do not include having to have one, swear on a bible or take communion. Simply to turn up.

Anyway moot point as will not be doing it.

[Rubirosa]

I think it's completely wrong that there are state funded faith schools - especially when they deprive children of a place in their local school! Given that it is a shit system, fulfilling whatever criteria they want to get your DD into her local school seems morally fine to me.

[baconcrisps]

DH is turning internet off so this REALLY is last post now!
Bssh "found out*? At what? We would not be lying or misleading anyone, simply following admissions rules, though not for as long as they state.
Within the 18 categories are multiple churches so all parents and children do not attend the same one so not worried dd would "miss out" plus have said if she wants to go I will take her.
Night

[franticallyjugglinglife]

Good post by tiggytape. I couldn't agree more. I had almost exactly the same dilemma as you op, but decided to stick to my principles and send dd to the primary with higher sn/fsm etc. I also had the same worries, but I absolutely made the right decision. There are a number of reasons:

*i am so glad when I talk to parents of the c of e school that dd is not made to feel 'different' because she doesn't attend church, or Sunday school, or have a family bible that she can take to class and tell stories about, or not knowing her favourite bible story. Because that is what happens in our local outstanding c of e school. And I am so pleased dd is not part of it.
*I am delighted that dd is mixing with children of all different abilities and backgrounds. It is turning her into a tolerant, caring and compassionate little girl who understands that not everyone is the same. Life lesson learnt.
*I love the fact that it's not all about standards and academia at dds school, because it is at the 'outstanding' school - they have an outrageously competitive HT (and parents!) where results are everything. We have a wide and varied curriculum which isn't all centred on the classroom, and dd loves it. And do you know what, our VA score knocks socks off theirs, and that's what matters IMO.

I know that not all faith schools will be as I described, but i really do thank my lucky stars every time I walk past it on the way to dd's school that I made the call I did.

Go visit them both. Look at the underlying data for ofsted and sats etc. the ofsted grade doesn't necessarily mean it is a happy school in my view. And work out whats most important for you and your dd - don't think this will be hypocrisy (because that's what it is) for the next 12-18 months. It will be for the next 7 years. Can you carry that off?

[complexo]

Yes you would not be faking religion, and said so many times, I apologise.
But I know so many who do (and so many who doesn't)....just reminds me how unfair the whole system is. Every child should have a real outstanding eduacation ay whatever school they go to (not only outstanding on the Ofsted report)...
The hypocrates in my community are the ones who look down on us and make nasty comments on my child's school just because their catholic school is perceived to be 'better', which I don't believe it is.
That is why posts like yours makes me sad.
I cried a lot when I received the result about my daughters school but I didn't know much, just what people was telling me and the women wearing hijabs at the school gate. First time I went there for a visit I was so glad my child got a place there and I was s relieved too, I was grateful. And still am.
Sorry if my post is harsh, I don't speak English as first language either lol, it is hard for me to express feelings.
Good luck with whatever decision, you both sound like good parents and even if your daughter doesn't get into an 'outstanding' one, I am sure the support at home will make up for it.

[malinois]

@MrsDimples:

Faith schools should be kept for children from families that believe in the faith.

You do realise that many of us have no choice?

DS can either go to the CoE school in the nearest village, or the CoE school in the next nearest village, or the CoE school in the village after that - get the picture?

[StrawberryTot]

YANBU to want to do everything you can to get your child in the right school, however I do feel you would be being rather hypocritical to lie.

Both my partner and I are atheists, but we applied to the local catholic school for our dd as it was the best one around, we had little expectation in regards to her being offered a place due to us coming last on the criteria list and it being popular, however luck prevailed and we managed. My dd flourished in her school and whole heartedly embraced the religion. As a result we now attend catholic church every sunday with my dd and her younger brother, and they are both on the path to being baptised, with the congregation fully accepting my partner and I's belief.

So in a way I'm basically saying that just because you don't tick all the right boxes doesn't necessarily mean you won't get in, I just took the long way round to tell you

[EndoplasmicReticulum]

malinois we're in the same situation.

No choice - which is presumably why they don't mind letting in the heathens to the village school.

[complexo]

I tottaly agree with franticallyjugglinglife's great post.

[Kayano]

I am going to church just for this.

I am a raging hypocrite but when pass rates are 94% vs 72% then I have no problem with this.

[Kayano]

And it actually is my local school btw I'm just not prepared to put my daughters education at risk due to my principles or beliefs. They may not even be right!

How do I know if there is a God anyway? I'll just go to church and get on with it.