Schools - WWYD

[baconcrisps]

DH and I are atheist and have always believed that it would be hypocritical of us to attend church purely with a view to DD (age 3) attending a particular school. We do not, however, have any issues with DD attending a church school and learning about the Christian faith, singing hymns, taking part in asssemblies etc.

DD is 3 and will be starting at the nursery of our closest school in Sept. It is a C of E school that Ofsted judge as outstanding and the school is heavily oversubscribed. We did not expect her to get a nursery place here, and if I wasn't pregnant she would have stayed at the private preschool she currently goes to. However having got the place at the school nursery this will help massively financially and being local is also much more convenient.

We have to apply for school places in January and currently fall within the 15th out of 18 criteria for places. Usually all places are gone by the 13th or 14th criteria so it is incredibly unlikely that DD will be offered a school place there on the basis of living 2 minutes walk away. The next nearest school seems fine, we have always assumed she would go there and been happy with that. It is a much more diverse intake, higher free meals, higher SEN, higher English not first language, higher numbers starting and leaving within the school year. I didn't think I had a problem with that. However now it is getting closer, maybe I do. I also think I am disrupting DD enough by removing her from her preschool where her friends are so she can go to the CofE nursery and then will be moving her again, while her friends stay there, to go to another school.

Technically it is too late for us to do a U-turn on our lack of beliefs and start going to church - you are meant to attend for 18 months before applying to get in on one of the church criteria. However DD's (new) CM said she knows of at least one child whose parents only attended for a few months and the vicar (?) signed off on the form. Now I am struggling - should I put aside my view that education should not be dependent on a parent's religion (or willingness to turn up at a place of religion) or should I do whatever is within my power to get my DD a place at a good school?

[Galena]

Ok, complexo this is long and not terribly interesting, but you did ask...

DD has a mobility problem so she takes a long time to get up/down stairs. The school's ICT suite is upstairs so I asked what would happen in the event of a fire when she's upstairs and I was told 'Well, she's still small, someone could carry her' which is not only illegal, but doesn't seem a terribly long-term solution! Also, if she was unable to get upstairs it 'doesn't matter because the classroom computers are networked, so she can stay in the classroom with a TA'. This, to me, didn't seem terribly inclusive!

I also wasn't sure whether DD would be toilet trained by the time she started school and when I mentioned this I was told that they had a child at the school already who was in nappies still - and they were looking at providing an area for changing nappies. This other child had been at the school for 8 months already!

And finally, (as if those 2 weren't enough!) they would not let me talk to/contact the SENCO at all because 'she's only in school one day a week and on that day she's in the classroom, so there is no way you can talk to her'! We'll have a lot to do with a SENCO, and if I'm not able to talk to her, it's far less than ideal!

It just seemed that they very much wanted to adapt DD to fit into the school, rather than the other way round. The ex-special measures school had thought about possible adaptations they would need to make if DD went to their school BEFORE we'd even gone for a first visit! Now we've confirmed that's where we want her to go, they are using the next year (before she goes) to get things set up so it's in place before she goes.

[Kayano]

My local school is the religious school though. I'd have to go further away.

Anyway why shouldn't the children of non-believers go? Having non believing parents does not mean a child can't believe, same as two religious parents can have an atheist child.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with following the criteria and getting your child into the best (and sometimes local) school you can.

[RichTeas]

Hypocritical. All these CofE schools being attended by children of non-believers. If you don't believe you should support the local school, if everyone did that local schools would be better and CofE schools would be fewer.

[complexo]

Now I'm curious to know why the school's attitude stinks towards SEN...?

[Galena]

We attend church. The church school linked to the church is 'Outstanding'. There are also 2 non-religious schools nearer. DD has a disability so we've been thinking about schools sooner than we need (applications to be in by Jan). The church school's attitude STINKS! The other 2 schools are both really positive and lovely. We're choosing the one which was in Special Measures 4 years ago.

Outstanding church schools aren't necessarily fabulous!

[complexo]

May I point out that a 'good' community school with high SEN, high free school dinner and high English not 1st language seems more successful than an outstanding school where the people has more disposable income and tutor/push children at home.

[Chandon]

Well, OP, it's up to you.

Being a bit ahead of you in the school game, I can assure you Ofsted doesn't mean much at all. I would rather choose a "satisfactory" school that I'd like the atmosphere, other parents and (most importantly) the head of than a selection based on Ofsted.

TBH, I think Ofsted ratings do more harm than good, it really does not mean it is genuinely outstanding, just that they are good at admin, ticking boxes, playing along and maybe they ARE great, or maybe all parents tutor their kids and this gives good results, nothing to do with the school (this was the case at our "outstanding" school).

Trust your instincts, and visit both schools so you can compare.

[WinstonThePony]

the white british tattooed fat smoking swearing parents
see if you said that about any other ethnic group you would be picked up here on MN and in RL immediately for racism or intolerance.
I am white, British, slightly overweight, I have a tattoo on my ankle and I smoke and swear (OK not at the school gates!)
I also have a university degree, my own business, and want the best for my children. Do not need supercilious twits making assumptions and looking down their noses at me for being a size 16 or whatever. Thanks. Now I remember the real reason for not choosing a church school.

[complexo]

Don't be ashamed or embarrassed it is only natural that you want your child to spend school years in the environment that you feel more comfortable with. At least you have a choice and I didn't. Luckily mine community school is very good you have to go see yours. I'm Christian but I don't attend churches or follow the bible so I don't want my child to be forces to do so, it will make her confused I think. She has a very catholic friend who came to sleep over one day. The friend really struggled as we don't have a bible to read before bed and I don't know how to sing and pray like her parents do before sleep time....she was afraid God wouldn't be happy because she didn't follow the religious routine...I don't want my child to be so dependent on religion like this.... You need to go and see both schools and apply for both giving priority to the one you feel more comfortable with regardless faith or Ofsted results.

[baconcrisps]

I know complexo. I thought I didn't think like this. I am a little ashamed.

Thanks to you (and others) who have pointed out there may well be advantages to the more diverse school. I know and I do agree. As for the free meals and SEN, well dd is only 3 so may turn out to have SEN and of course am only 2 redundancies away from free meals. I am embarrassed that I have thought about this in the way that I have.

[complexo]

The white trash you describe are parents not teachers, why would them be detrimental for you child' education? Again you don't want your child to mix with the 'wrong' kind of people that is fine. But if she did, she would probably learn how to deal with people from all walks of life. They are poor, fat, they smoke, they drink and they have tattoos, God knows they might take drugs too (and rich people sure take drugs aswell) but they are not necessarily bad people and they probably just didn't have the same chances that you had.

[baconcrisps]

The 18 categories depend on which church you attend (there is a defined hierarchy) and whether you have a sibling place, not how devout you are.

it wasn't the "multi culti" thing causing a wobble over other school. Dd's preschool and our friends are v ethnically diverse. It was more the white british tattooed fat smoking swearing parents I saw picking up on last day. I am not proud of myself for this

[Morloth]

What do you think is the best thing for your DD? Weighing up all the variables? Once you think you know what that is do that.

You would be a hypocrit to pretend a religion for this, but hey, I would do pretty much anything necessary to give my kids the best so I would probably do it.

I have actually changed my mind on this over the years, before I found out about the UK schools system properly I was appalled at this behaviour. Then the crunch came for my DS while we were there and the schools offered were just completely ridiculous (a looooong way from home) so we went private.

[WinstonThePony]

oh I better not say exactly, but it was to do with reproduction..
lol @ that led most of my class to accept that hardly any of us actually believed

[Kayano]

What did they actually tell you about 'such places' you haven't said...

We learned about all religions with an emphasis on Christianity and were taught acceptance

Acceptance to respect that people don't believe
And that led most of my class to accept that hardly any of us actually believed

[WinstonThePony]

but you stated that 'all my posts' said 'i have a friend, a friend told me' when I said nothing of the sort, I mentioned 'female relatives' once so how that is 'all my posts' is beyond me. I know what close family members have told me about such places, sorry if that is not 'personal' enough for you. Obviously if you attended such a school, you are going to be defensive. As I said, I am simply questioning and discussing, not condemning or 'looking down on'.

[Kayano]

Well 'female relatives' then

The point being you have no personal experience but seem to look down on the schools for seemingly brainwashing children.

[WinstonThePony]

But all your posts are 'I have a friend, my friend told me...'
if you mean me, show me where I mentioned any 'friend'?
I am not 'outraged', just discussing and questioning.

[Kayano]

We had 'relationship and marriage' workshops (and then they quickly mentioned about sex but then carried on quickly) lol

Yes you make it clear you think they indoctrine kids and brainwash them from your 'strategically placed quotation marks'

But all your posts are 'I have a friend, my friend told me...'

I went to one and I don't believe so maybe tone down your outrage a bit.

[Hownoobrooncoo]

I attended an RC secondary nearly 30 yrs ago. No brainwashing or much religion though they did show some unpleasant abortion videos and wheel in the missionary nuns to try and recruit.

[Hownoobrooncoo]

Hilda - bloody IPad.! Actually about time Hilda made a comeback if all the other oldie names have!

[WinstonThePony]

They don't brainwash kids, just teach them about the religion.
I do have some female relatives who attended an RC secondary, and what they told me about their PSHE (or whatever their school called it) did sound alot like indoctrination, yes.

[Kayano]

Hilda bloody hates it when she misses out let me tell you