Schools - WWYD

[baconcrisps]

DH and I are atheist and have always believed that it would be hypocritical of us to attend church purely with a view to DD (age 3) attending a particular school. We do not, however, have any issues with DD attending a church school and learning about the Christian faith, singing hymns, taking part in asssemblies etc.

DD is 3 and will be starting at the nursery of our closest school in Sept. It is a C of E school that Ofsted judge as outstanding and the school is heavily oversubscribed. We did not expect her to get a nursery place here, and if I wasn't pregnant she would have stayed at the private preschool she currently goes to. However having got the place at the school nursery this will help massively financially and being local is also much more convenient.

We have to apply for school places in January and currently fall within the 15th out of 18 criteria for places. Usually all places are gone by the 13th or 14th criteria so it is incredibly unlikely that DD will be offered a school place there on the basis of living 2 minutes walk away. The next nearest school seems fine, we have always assumed she would go there and been happy with that. It is a much more diverse intake, higher free meals, higher SEN, higher English not first language, higher numbers starting and leaving within the school year. I didn't think I had a problem with that. However now it is getting closer, maybe I do. I also think I am disrupting DD enough by removing her from her preschool where her friends are so she can go to the CofE nursery and then will be moving her again, while her friends stay there, to go to another school.

Technically it is too late for us to do a U-turn on our lack of beliefs and start going to church - you are meant to attend for 18 months before applying to get in on one of the church criteria. However DD's (new) CM said she knows of at least one child whose parents only attended for a few months and the vicar (?) signed off on the form. Now I am struggling - should I put aside my view that education should not be dependent on a parent's religion (or willingness to turn up at a place of religion) or should I do whatever is within my power to get my DD a place at a good school?

[loveroflife]

It may be evident that you aren't church goers - people tend to ask questions and it will be difficult to lie about why you haven't regularly attended etc.

Also, you can't go then stop when ds gets in, you will have to keep attending and how will that fit in with your child be involved in reg worship etc?

Have your thought about how you will carry on the teaching at home or whether ds is to be baptised or confirmed?

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[Rosebud05]

I'm with blu. You can't possibly know which is the 'best' school for your dd before you visit them both, preferably more than once.

I find it a bit distasteful when people talk about 'high SEN, EAL, FSM' as though their own child may be contaminated in some way by contact with children with different backgrounds. Who knows? Maybe one day your children or mine may have SEN or be on FSM or, if one of us moved abroad, be one of the children who speak a different language at home. I hate the thought of children being lumped under some anacronym with loads of assumptions being made about them.

Visit both schools, see how your dd does in nursery and do bear in mind that there'll be an awful lot of people drilling you as to why you found God the year before your eldest child starts school and lots of praying and 'voluntary' donations to the Church to be made over the next 8+ years .

[worrywortisworrying]

Thanks tiredness

[baconcrisps]

sooty we haven't decided. We didn't go today as we were discussing it and still haven't made up our minds.

tiredness yes I agree that it wouldn't be a good example which is why I thought we had decided not to do it. Just having a crisis of non faith I guess. I don't have an issue of high numbers of kids with SEN, I do if there isn't enough TA's additional support etc to properly support them and the NT kids. I suspect, though don't know, that there is usually a shortage/delay in Getting the proper support.

[Floggingmolly]

Would attending church for 6 months really move you from 15th to 3rd place in the list of criteria? . Best not believe all you hear.

[lemonpie7]

You want your child to be offered a place in a church school

Therefore you are prepared to attend church, learn more about the culture and faith of the anglican church.

The church exists to support the community and expain and demonstrate the faith.

You are the community, and are asking for support (educationally), and are willing to see the faith explained and demonstrated.

That seems to be to be an example of the system WORKING, nothing devious or hypocritical there, as far as Ican see.

[baconcrisps]

lover we wouldn't lie. Absolutely clear on that. From what I have heard, LOTS of parents attend the 2x per month for 18 months for the place and then it's special occasional only. The church acknowledges this and are, I assume fine with it, as some must stay on. Dd would not be christened.

[baconcrisps]

floggingmolly we don't know. Probably not.

Would love some thoughts on moving DD twice in 2 years. Will it really be disruptive? Will she just make new friends as she's so young anyway?

[loveroflife]

I'm surprised the church acknowleges it - they are simply saying here's the rules, play by it.

Would you continue attending once dd got in? I just can't see the school saying: "Well, you did the time to get in, now in you're in, don't worry about going to Church apart from Xmas, Easter etc, surely it must be also regular attendence once you're at school otherwise what's the point?"

If the above is the case, then I am amazed at the hypocrisy of the school!

[loveroflife]

Oh and I'm sure she won't be disrupted, not every child in that nursery will go into the school for a number of different reasons...

They are so small, the friendships will all change and if she does make some firm friends, doesn't mean she can't be friends with them just because they attend different schools....

[Sirzy]

The problem is lover unfortunately the school can't force parents to attend the church. They can encourage them and try to make the children want to but they can hardly go and drag the family out of bed on a sunday morning!

[loveroflife]

But Sirzy then the school is as bad as the parents!

Very simple: how can a school be a faith school unless the children regularly attend Church?

I would even expect that if they didn't regularly attend, the school would have the power to ask them to re-consider their place. It just doesn't make sense, the teaching wouldn't be consistent as the church should surely supplement and enhance a faith school curriculum - they go hand in hand do they not?

[Goldenbear]

YANBU.

I agree with Lemonpie and it was my understanding that Cof E schools now had that remit to reach out to the community. It is the purpose of a Church within a community to reach out to it, it is not about and I quote putting,'nice Christians into safe places.'!

It is the OP's local school she should be able to use it!

[Sirzy]

What are the school supposed to do?

If you start removing places for things that are out of the childs control is that really fair?

I do agree with you that the two should go hand in hand but that is up to the parents ultimately not the school.

[baconcrisps]

sirzy exactly. If dd did want to go to Sunday School once there, that would be fine. I used to go and still turned out atheist.

lover by setting out the criteria so explicitly, they must acknowledge it happens. They can't withdraw the place once accepted so all they can do is encourage it

[Donnella]

I believe that faith schools are morally reprehensible and are a factor which denegrates mosst organised religions to the status of cults. If you, considering your beliefs, are willing to participate in this then I feel it puts you on shaky moral ground on several counts.
I do understand the desire for both consistency and high educational standards for your chld, but at any cost?

[Sirzy]

But Bacon if you CHOOSE to send her to a church school (ie not a case of there being no other schools) then surely you should be encouraging her to be part of the church community by attending church?

[baconcrisps]

sirzy No, I may be choosing to send her to the closest school, outstanding school, school that will provide consistency in EYFS education. The church bit is incidental (to me)

[loveroflife]

I still can't believe that you have to attend to get in, but then once you're in not attend Off to ponder about life

[Sirzy]

So that makes you hypocritical if you pretend to have a faith and then ignore that when it is a major part of the schools ethos. I seriously struggle to understand why you would want to send a child to a school when you are openly saying your unwilling to join in the wider community of the school.

[loveroflife]

But bacon, you are then (covertly) saying to dd this is how you play the system to get a result (if you don't encourage her to attend church when she is at school?)

What happens if she says Mum I feel like I should attend church regularly, as this is what my school believes in?

[MerryMarigold]

I wouldn't. The other school sounds great tbh. I would have left her where she was and claimed the 15 hours free, then moved on to the other school - which sounds better tbh. I don't think church schools provide a better education and I AM a Christian. It's not worth lying for to be more 'exclusive', more middle class, less diverse etc.

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

I'd have my bum on a pew quicker than you could say hypocrite.

It's not ou that should have something to feel guilty about, it's the system that is making you plays these games to stand a chance of getting into your nearest school.

I wouldn't like the sound of the other school tbh because of the high number of starters and leavers. I think that is disruptive.

Whether going to the other school will be disruptive for your dd or not depends entirely on your dd, so you are the only one who can say. Some children would take it in their stride and have no problem. Others would find it very disruptive and it would be unsettling for them.

[LeeCoakley]

How do you know about the high number of starters and leavers? And what's high? 5 or more in a class each year? These aren't rumours started by the pseuds are they?