to say something to cleaner leaving early and what do I say?

[Trioofprinces]

New cleaner started about a month ago. We agreed she would do 3 hrs. She said that after getting used to it she thought it would take 2-2.5hrs, but we agreed to stick to 3hrs for the time being.

A couple of weeks ago she left after 2hrs 45mins so the following week I said something along the lines of "you seemed to be doing ok for time last week so if you have time could you please do x this week".

This week was the first time I left and let her lock up. I know she got here at 9.30 and the alarm shows her leaving at 11.50, so she stayed for 2hrs 20mins only. She took the money for the full 3hrs. (It would have been easy to take for 2.5hrs as she charges £8ph and I left £24, so she could have taken £20 and left a note).

Now, obviously if I didn't have the alarm I wouldn't have known when she left, and I doubt she knows that I can see the entry and exit time of her keyfob.

She came highly recommended so I don't want to naff her off but I also want to make the point that I am happy to pay for what she does, whether that be 2.5hrs or 3hrs but that I expect her to work the time I have paid.

We are also going on holiday next week and she is due to do 6hrs while we're away, now clearly if she thinks my house can be done in less than 2.5hrs, there is no way she is going to work all 6hrs we're away.

So, what do I say to make her realise I can see how long she's here without sounding like I'm monitoring her, and what do I do about the holiday time?

WWYD?

Thanks

I always worth paying more than the local going rate for cleaners as, ultimately, they are not doing it for the fun of it and it is definitly hard work. I also think its important to make sure they know you appreciate what they do. I pay double for bank holidays, if they want to work them and I give a decent Xmas bonus.

In twenty odd years of having cleaners I only had a problem with one of them ( see my earlier post) Otherwise, I have only ever had to change cleaners when I or they have moved. One lady worked for me for 8 years. More relevantly to the thread, I employed all of them on hourly rates, did not expect them to work ridiculously hard but did expect them to work their hours. They were happy and I was happy.

Would you be happy then if she holds a duster over the coffee table for 20 minutes just so that she fills the time on your alarm?

Oh and instead of checking the alarm and the time why don't you check the floor and the bathroom. If they are clean fine, if they are not talk to her.

Agree with MagicHouse.

I am having a similar prob with my cleaner. Usually I'm not here when she comes, but the last two weeks I have been, unexpectedly for her, and I've noticed that she's coming half an hour later than she says she is. Of course, I will only pay her for what I've seen her do, but it leaves me in a quandary over whether she's been honest with me. I've noticed a definite dip in standards recently, I don't believe she's doing the hours she's claiming for.

Not sure what to do really. If she's discontented about pay I'd rather she speak to me. I might be having to let her go anyway in the Autumn.

Oh come on, Laquitar, the OP's cleaner is claiming for hours she's not working! It's dishonest, plain and simple.

Would you be happy then if she holds a duster over the coffee table for 20 minutes just so that she fills the time on your alarm?

Well that's the trouble really, obviously her doing that after you spoke to her wouldn't be what you wanted - but you'll never know now whether your cleaner will do that. (unless you got a spy cam - which to me is taking cynicism and distrust a little too far!) Personally I think it's quite possible that someone who obviously takes your money for nothing and not say would then simply hang around in your house to remain getting paid a fiver for nothing. Which is why I'd be employing someone else.

lucyallensmum - are you serious that I am BVU??
She is not paid by the 'job' but by the hour, which is why I said to her up front that if she doesn't have time to do something then stop at 3hrs whatever!
The point also is that she isn't doing all the work that the previous one did in 4hrs, I made clear that I didn't expect her to do all the work and if she didn't have time to dust the whole house every week for example then upstairs/downstairs every 2nd week is fine. In fact, she does have the time but is buggering off early rather than do the full job.

Dowagershump
I resent the suggestion that I am being a tightarse. £8 per hour is what she asked for, it is £1.50ph more than she gets at her other cleaning job and she was very happy when I said it was fine. I have not in any way tried to 'bargain' down her rate.

pickledpenny
I think I do treat her with respect, have been very happy to move days/times when she had a family situation come up. Have told her I am happy to be flexible if she needs me to be, she just needs to text me. I always make her a coffee/tea when I make myself one. I talk to her like a human being and have a chat. Most of the time she is here I am locked away in my office doing work so that I can pay for her!

The hours are there just to make it easier to work out a payment i.e. 'hmm i reckon will take me around 4 hours to clean this house so thats £40'. Gardners do the same. It is a rough idea, you dont have to time them. You check on the work they have done.

Laquitar - no I wouldn't be happy if she held a duster over the dining room table for 20 mins, I would be happy if the dusting was finished!

I run a cleaning firm and get this issue a lot with certain staff. At the point they knock off over 30 mins early I take it down the disciplinary procedure.

Having said that £8ph is EXTREMELY CHEAP for a cleaner. My firm charges £14ph and I know one successful firm who charge £19.

I would make her aware that you know what time she starts and leaves as it is recorded on the keyfob. Promise her from that time onwards you will only pay for the work she has done. Once she realises you know what hours she does she will probably stop taking the piss.

"The hours are there just to make it easier to work out a payment i.e. 'hmm i reckon will take me around 4 hours to clean this house so thats £40'."

That would be true if she was being paid a 'job' rate, but not so if the agreement is for 3hrs of her time rather than the 'job'.
For example, I am an accountant and charge fixed fees. Of course I work out to myself roughly how long the job will take and the rate I want to earn, then I say to the potential client "my fee will be £250". My client pays £250 independent of how long it takes. All fine and everyone is happy.

For a very few of my clients, who pay me an hourly rate, up front I say I charge say £70ph and I think it'll take 3-4 hours as an estimate. Say it actually takes 2hrs I would actually charge them £140, if it took 4hrs I'd charge them £280.

So I think there is a fundamental difference between being paid an agreed hourly rate and a fee for 'the job'.

Trioofprinces wrote the following:

Dowagershump
I resent the suggestion that I am being a tightarse. £8 per hour is what she asked for, it is £1.50ph more than she gets at her other cleaning job and she was very happy when I said it was fine. I have not in any way tried to 'bargain' down her rate.

If she is working for £6.50 an hour there is no way she has liability insurance and it is thus illegal for her to be working. I would be suspicious that this woman may also be disingenuous when it comes to paying her income tax/claiming benefits. Cash in hand really pisses me off as I have to compete with people who are not working legally. If you continue to employ her with this knowledge then you are condoning this behaviour.

turbo1 - I really don't mind 15 mins here and there, it's the 40 mins that started off my concerns and I just want to nip it in the bud before it becomes established.

As I say again, she was really happy with £8, her suggested rate not mine. It is a decent rate for around here (not big city). I know she gets £6.50 where she does commercial cleaning. I also do payroll for another firm who pay their cleaner £6.10ph!

Op, that comment wasn't aimed at you but some of the posters on this thread BUT, I get paid £4-5 ph more than your cleaner does (in S E) and work bloody hard for that money, every week I pull setees, furniture out etc... defy any of my customers to be unhappy with my standard of work.

Would I be quite as motivated to work for £8 ph? Probably not. You get what you pay for.

At her £6.50ph job she is fully on PAYE, not cash in hand. I am not condoning anyone breaking the law.

I should point out that I am not in SE or a particularly expensive area.

If she is working for you at £8 ph it is more or less impossible to do that with liability insurance. I would ask to see proof of her insurance documents and if she does not have them you should stop her immediately.

If you are choosing to pay someone £24 for 2 hours 20 you have a bargain and if you should not complain.

I just hope she is declaring this income.

I used to employ a cleaner, she came for three hours a week. She was quicker than her predecessor, so got through what I wanted done in about two and a half hours. She would then use her initiative and select whatever one-off job she thought most needed doing. I found her standing on a chair dusting the ceiling lampshade once (it's not been cleaned again since, that was over ten years ago).

God I miss her. She has probably spoiled me for employing a cleaner ever again, I'd be measuring them against her.

YOU are paying her cash in hand. If you have entered into this sort of arrangement what on earth do you expect?

If you want a professional firm to do your cleaning you have to pay far more than this-however all my earnings are declared to the tax.

turbo1 - you say it is illegal for her to work without liability insurance, I find that hard to believe as a domestic cleaner sole trader. I would understand if she employed someone, she would have to have employer's liability. Is that what you mean? If not, what law states she must have public liability insurance?

I have spoken to her about declaring the income, and she assures me she is. At the end of the day she is genuinely self-employed and I cannot check her tax returns.

turbo1 - I actually pay her direct into her bank account, not cash in hand. It would be easily traceable should HMRC look at her statements and she hasn't declared it. So, therefore - what on earth should I expect??

It is absolutely the law she has public liability insurance. As for her declaring her income I hope she is giving you receipts.

If you do not think she is up to standard it is your right to sack her. If she is doing the job-leave her alone. You are very lucky to be getting this service so cheap.

tag her
&
cctv her

FFS - I understand you being naffed off at competing with cash in hand cleaners, but I am not paying her cash in hand. She is declaring her income, as far as I can tell. I have spoken to her about this.

Also, £8 is a decent rate around here. Others are getting £6.10-£6.50!! I am not 'very lucky', it is the going rate!

I am interested though, where in law does it state she must have public liability insurance as a domestic cleaner?

ekidna -