To think that no matter what you think of your child's father it is wrong to try and poison your child against him?

[HexagonalQueenOfEverything]

I am getting increasingly frustrated with an acquaintance of mine. She has an 8 year old DD, who is friends with my 8 year old DD, and she split from her DD's father when her DD was 6 months old. The father cheated on her and didn't behave brilliantly but there was no violence or abuse, just him being an arse at times and then having an affair.

Anyway, she initially refused to allow the father any contact and finally after about two years he was granted access through the court; every other weekend throughout the year, with the child staying overnight, and a couple of full weeks of 'holiday' per year.

However in recent years, probably the last two, this woman has increasinly poisoned her daughter against her father. She has instilled into the little girl that the girl doesn't like her father, and that he's horrible and that she doesn't want to visit him. I've heard her saying it. I can tell her daughter agrees with her just to keep the peace. The father now has a three year old daughter too and this woman has told her DD that the three year old is not her sister and she is not allowed to refer to her as her sister.

The woman has now said she is going to stop her DD going to her fathers' house again and he can take her back to court. I feel she hasn't given any thought to her daughter's feelings, she is just going by her hatred of her ex. The little girl talk glowingly of her father when she comes round, and says she likes going there. But if her mum asks her if she likes going, she says that no, she hates her dad, and I do feel this is because her mum is poisoning her and making her feel obliged to say that. The mum is the kind of mum that just speaks for her child all the time.

AIBU to feel it's wrong. and to feel sorry for the child?

OP, you're not in any way wrong at all. You'll have trouble convincing an upsettingly large minority of people here of that, of course. Some people really are bitter and twisted, one can only hope they'll change and grow, but it's incredibly sad for the little girl here.

This mum is setting her child up for a lifetime of insecurity as well - how can she ever build a life in which she knows how to trust and who to trust, if the one person she's supposed to rely on most lies to her and manipulates her?

My ex was a violent nasty piece of work (not to the children tho). I gritted my teeth every time they went to visit (he is 400 miles away), but I said nothing bad about him. They are grown up now, and think he is an arse and want nothing to do with him and saw him for what he was at ages 11 and 13.

YANBU

Insult the parent and you insult half the child.

Nonsense.

Poor child. I feel for her.

This happened to a (ex) friend years ago. No violence, just a player, he came from a different continent and the mother slagged off anyone from there. I was appalled. She was in fact saying to her daughter that that half of hers was no good. That is sick.

Imagine divorcing an English man and subsequently saying that every English man is no good. Weird.

I can see both sides TBH. What the mother is doing is wrong. No excuses.

However, I disagree that just because someone is a shit partner doens't mean that they can't make a great dad. (think there may be too many negatives in that sentence but hopefully you get what I'm saying.

IME, integrity is something you carry with you in all modes of your behaviour. If you are capable of lying and behaving badly toward one person, you are usually capable of doing so with another, and that person may well be your child.

That said, the parent-child bond is far less conditional than the bond between partners and yes it is possible for a serial cheater to be a great parent. I don't think it's possible in cases of abuse though, but that's another thread.

If you really care about your child, you should show some respect to the other parent. It goes both ways. It means ending a relationship with integrity if you find someone else you'd rather shag, so in that respect I see where AThing is coming from. If he hadn't treated his partner like shit, this may not be happening. But two wrongs don't make a right and the mother's behaviour will only serve to hurt the child.

I sometimes think that counselling should be made compulsory for separating parents. I think most people are just so hurt and in the thick of it that they just can't step back and see the bigger picture, i.e. the damage they're doing to the children. Sometimes all it takes is for someone to point it out.

I think i would point this all out to her. She might go mental at you but its got to be said.

Its damaging to the child and it needs stopping. Someone has to stand up for the child.

Also, the mother in this case isn't teaching her dc to be forgiving. She is teaching them to hold grudges and to lie and manipulate.
The kids then that learn to behave this way and grow up to be just as bad as their 'terrible fathers'
I forgave my ex a long time ago and I am sure that my boys will forgive him too when they find out why we split and realise that despite all this they ended up with two parents who love them and put them first.
That is what is important.

I think it's unfair on the child but the guy sounds an arse - having an affair IS being a bad father because it showed he had no respect for the family unit

The fact that advice an affair all those years ago should not come into his relationship with his daughter now.

Holy. I can't make sense of your post.

YANBU - disgusting behaviour stemming more from the idea that children are possessions rather then people.

Why would you cut your child off from someone who loves them?

YANBU. My break up with my ex was bitter as most break ups are.
But he adores my ds, and so did his paternal grandparents. (only grandchild)
Ds is 17 now, and though me and my ex can never be friends, he has a brilliant relationship with him.
I did find it hard at the beginning to bite my tongue when ds came home having had a wonderful time with his dad, but it's worth it for him to know he has two parents that adore him.

YANBU. It's terrible to poison a child's mind. I am happily divorced from DS's dad, and I hate my X with a passion sometimes, but I would never bad-mouth him to DS. It's an awful thing to do, because I'm sure your friend's DD loves her dad a lot, and would be hurt hearing him being slagged off. Can you explain to your friend how her daughter must feel about it?

My ex was violent and emotionally abusive. But I have always encouraged his relationship with DD, even when I couldnt stand to look at him at pick up times. Somedays if she is tired she will say she doesnt want to go to his, but I know she always has a great time with him, so I encourage her even though it would be so easy for me to manipulate that situation.

I also know that I will never tell her about why the relationship broke down. Maybe if shes in her twenties and it comes out ( SS records etc) I will talk it through. But I will never try to turn her against him even though he made my life hell.

I think its disgusting for any mother to bad mouth a father. If there are reasons why he has no contact eg abuse of the child/high risk etc then tell them the truth when they are old enough to process it. But young children are inclined to blame themselves for things when they dont fully understand. That then makes the mother emotionally abusive IMO.

wannabe, you are obviously the bigger person and all credit to you. You clearly love your child.

Do you not worry about that being used against you though? At some point, your child is going to ask, and you might be prepared to cover it up, but will your X? You may find yourself weaving a very tangled web indeed trying not to contradict your Xs story while not painting yourself in a bad light.

As long as you make it clear that the child is not responsible, I think it's fine and actually desirable to tell the truth when asked (not before). Mannerisms and talents are inherited, behaviour is learned. As long as you are quick to point out the positive associations between child and abusive parent (e.g. you're good at maths, just like your dad), and reassure the child that he or she has done nothing wrong and isn;t going to inherit bad behaviour because behaviour is a choice, I see nothing wrong in telling the truth. You don't slag off the other parent and you keep the language as unemotional as possible and stick only to the facts, but you tell the truth. IMO, it shows that you made the correct decision to leave a damaging relationship, which demonstrates to your child that you are capable of putting their (and your) best interests first and that bad behaviour does not have to be tolerated. Your child will have faith in your judgement and be less influenced by her father if he starts to show abusive tendencies toward her.

There is a difference between bad mouthing, which is unacceptable, and covering up. My fear would be that if your X starts manipulating your child - which abusers often do as children grow older and start challenging them more - your child won't recognise it and be afraid that no one will believe her as daddy is always referred to in such glowing terms.

The thing is that we are all human and all flawed, some more so than others. Children need to be able to grow up being allowed to love both parents, warts and all. They will come to their own conclusions about the qualities of each parent but the funny thing is it probably won?t stop the relationship dead in its tracks at that ?moment of truth?. Most adults know that both parents are fundamentally human (ie flawed) and choose to love them anyway in some form or another. Children don?t need to be told one parent?s version/experience of the other parent. Undoubtedly they will pick things up but to consciously do it isn?t right. I can see how hard it would be to be self controlled at times though so don?t think the occasional slip makes someone a bad person.

I think most parents who do this do pay the price at one point with their kids in terms of angry reaction. But, hopefully, children will accept it and move on when they are older and see things for how they are. There are lots of complicated reasons why people act this way. The best thing for an alienated parent to do is to just be there when child needs them, not to push/force contact but just be there, accepting, loving ? come back when you need me. And to never ever retaliate by badmouthing the alienator. Keep calling. Maintain some contact. Understand how compromised child is and that the drivers for the behaviour (in both alienating parent and also child choosing to reject you) is probably much more complicated than you think it is. Often it coincides with an age when a child may well rebel against you anyway. Very hard but they will come back to you.

Wanna. I wouldn't think it would be a terrible thing to tell a child, once they are grown up, that their father was violent and abusive. There might be more of a need to know and of course its much more serious then a father having an affair. I don't think its really the same as slagging the dad off and making the child say she hates him.

Wanna. I also wonder if your daughter will feel that you have lied and kept things from her for her whole life once she finds out. She might feel very angry and betrayed that you didn't tell her.

Dahlen. I see you've put it better then me.

SS mother is like this - poor thing is totally messed up and has been in counselling for years - he loves his dad and is reduced to meeting him when he can sneak off and hide it from his mother because she screams and cries if she knows he is meeting us - and he feels he is responsible for her happiness.

My SS is 16 and totally controlled by his mother. It breaks my heart and there is nothing we can do to help him.
My belief is it will all backfire on her big style - he is already saying half the time he loves his mother and the other half of the time he hates her.

I should add that Dh had 40% contact until SS hit 14 when his mother decided court orders could no longer be enforced and tried to make SS stop seeing his dad - to the point of screaming at him in the street if he tried to leave the house for an overnight - she will never scream (or even communicate with) Dh as he is an adult and she is an out and out bully.

I feel so so sorry for him - I went to a school function with SS the other day and his friends mum told me how he has been in their house crying (poor boy) over it all. Whatever he does someone is unhappy - Dh just tells him to come when he can - doesn't want to add pressure to him.

The reason that I wont tell her the truth is because although he behaved that way he has since turned himself around. He has fully acknowledged his wrong doings and has proved himself as a father in the years since. We have now reached the point where we are civil. We put her first. Its difficult at times because of the past, but we are heading towards the future I imagined when we split.

If in the future he began manipulating her ofcourse I would step in. Ofcourse I would then tell her what happened so she knows its his issue and not hers. But so far he is a great father. They have a great relationship. And I dont feel clouding this is best for her.

Ofcourse not all situations are like ours. And the points a few of you have made are valid and I agree. But I have forgiven my ex and I now feel he should have the chance to bring his daughter up without the past in the way.

Totally agree, OP.

My son is 13. He's never met his father. It's his father's choice. I've shown him a photo of him, but he's not interested in having a photo of him. I've told him his name, some family details and created a space where he understands he's free to talk/ask about him.

But he's not.

I decided when DS was born that I'd never bad mouth his father, and I never have done. I've tried to answer his questions honestly and truthfully. But I would never answer a question like "Why hasn't X ever got in touch?" with "because he's a useless waste of space and you're better off without him". Or similar.

As much as anything, I largely suspect that he would assume I have badmouthed him to DS and if they ever do meet, that assumption and his reaction to it will tell DS more about the sort of man his father is than I could ever do, and without tarnishing DS's view of me!

I've told DS that if he ever wants to find him, I will help him. But he maintains that he doesn't want to. I imagine that will change at some point. I sort of hope it doesn't though. I've found his father on the internet and he seems to be quite a different person nowadays. I suspect it wouldn't be a positive experience for DS.

I would never speak badly about my DD to her dad. He is an arse and over the years my dd has worked this out herself. When we were going through contact(or rather me trying to get him to see his dd) there were many times that i felt like telling her but i didnt.

my ex has other kids and they will never be siblings to my DD as her dad doesnt see her so she will never meet them.