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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to refuse contact?

79 replies

SugarWay · 14/07/2012 20:36

First time posting, on behalf of my friend who is asking for advice.

Her story is that she fell in love and got married and became pregnant and her daughter is now 22 months old. The relationship started going wrong when she was pregnant, lots of nasty violent things happened, and as soon as she could, she instigated divorce proceedings and the divorce came through about six months ago.

Since the divorce came through, her ex has become increasingly unstable and she has had to get a restraining order against him. He broke that, and so she changed her number and moved house. He followed her home from her dad's one day and then went through her dustbin to discover her new number from a pizza box. Police arrested him outside her new house three times and he has now got 12 months probation and community service.

It was a clean break divorce. He has not asked for any contact, nor paid any maintenance since the divorce.

Now he has applied for contact. My friend suspects this is only a ploy for him to remain in her life. She has refused contact on the basis of his unreasonable behaviour and that he has had dozens chances to behave like a normal human being and act like a dad. As she says "he is never going to change"

Now she has now received court papers from his solicitor. She is very very worried as she does not want her daughter to have any contact with her ex at all. She is even prepared to go to prison over it.

What advice can people offer? Does anyone have any similar experiences that they can share. What sort of things does a court look for when deciding on such things?

Thanks in advance!

OP posts:
Spero · 14/07/2012 22:17

Several knife incidents? Bloody hell. If I was in court on her behalf I would say that nothing happens unless and until he gets a psychiatric assessment. He sounds really dangerous.

Original poster
SugarWay · 14/07/2012 22:17

Thanks MyLittleMiracles, she did offer contact via a contact centre after the divorce but it was refused as he wanted unsupervised overnight contact despite him being of no fixed abode at the time. His behaviour since then has made her realise that he is sick in the head and that he is never going to change and this is why she is refusing contact.

OP posts:
CouthyMow · 14/07/2012 22:18

Sassy, it is very frequent that abusive men get contact. I couldn't stop my Ex from having my DS overnight when he was just turned 3yo, despite the fact that there was an injunction on him AND he was a heavy dope user.

My friend has an injunction out on her Ex, this is ongoing currently, and the Judge has ordered that she lets him into her home during school hours, and every other weekend, despite the fact that he has been violent towards her older 2 dc (from a previous relationship, and why she kicked him out), despite the fact that her older 2 dc refuse to share the house with him, to the point where she has to leave her 3yo and 1yo in the house with him 5 days a week for 6 hours a day AND every other weekend.

He is still moving things around in her home, taking things like her post, and stealing her food like clearing out the herb & spice cupboard, he is calling the police EVERY OTHER NIGHT with one complaint or another, he has called Social Services, she has the injunction for DV towards her and her older dc's...

You have no idea what family courts will award an abusive ex. And when she was offered a place ina refuge - she was told to turn it down, by the judge, because it would be contact blocking as her ex has no fixed abode so has nowhere else but her house to see their DC, and he won't be allowed into the refuge!

peppapiggy · 14/07/2012 22:20

I'm in similar position, ex sees DS at contact centre, solicitor would not even go to court for a residency order as ex hadn't threatened to take DS in 2 years, this was because of a supervision order being in place - social services would not allow ex to have unsupervised contact, indeed social work had to supervise contact however social work do not stay indefinately. So in short I have to let ex see DS and if he tries anything I need to call police and then will have recent evidence for court procedings. Social services were disgusted but still closed case and solicitor had the good grace to admit I was in a catch 22 situation. So do think contact centre is the way to go, in my area they are free, maybe some free ones in your area.

CouthyMow · 14/07/2012 22:20

Oh, missed those posts! Cafcass. Ask them to do a psych evaluation on him, get your friend to explain that she is worried for the safety of their child, and wants a psych eval carried out to assess his state of mind, given these incidences. Cafcass are usually crap, but this will be enough to get them to stand up and listen.

She may have to agree to a psych evaluation herself though, in the 'interests of fairness'.

Sassybeast · 14/07/2012 22:21

Couthy - I am all too aware of what contact a violent ex will get unfortunately Sad
I was responding to Kathryns fairly flippant assertion that this man could be awarded residency of the child in this case if the mum failed to comply with his demands for contact - the chances of THAT happening are fairly minimal.

CouthyMow · 14/07/2012 22:24

Ah, yes. Residency, unlikely.

I will say, though, that 10 years on from the dope-smoking ex, he is now free of dope, and we have a relatively, unless his controlling OW gets involved reasonable 48%/52% split of access, though I have the 52%, and a residency order. And he is a much better father now, still liable to make half-arsed attempts to control me, but as I am now more than able to hold my own, it doesn't work!

Sassybeast · 14/07/2012 22:28

I just read your post on the other thread - made me cry Sad - although that could be the wine!

I too live in hope that ex will successfully address his demons, although with psycho OW cheer leading from the sides, I'm not hopeful Hmm

Original poster
SugarWay · 14/07/2012 22:31

Thanks everyone. Going to go to bed soon and think it all through. Do people think that CAFCASS are the way to go? Haven't read much good about them?

OP posts:
Spero · 14/07/2012 22:32

The court won't ask your friendto have an assessment unless there is evidence to suggest she needs it. These reports are expensive and there is no money in the system.

If he refuses to accept he has done anything violent, insist on a fact finding hearing. Violence at that level is very relevant to issue of contact.

Spero · 14/07/2012 22:35

You may not get a choiceover whether or not CAFCASS are involved. If the court wants a section 7 report it is either CAFCASS or social services that have to do it. They also carry out safeguarding checks when the matter comes to court and will be able to quickly verify criminal convictions etc.

hiddenhome · 14/07/2012 22:35

The courts will insist on contact regardless of how he has behaved towards her. They don't send mothers to prison either, they just transfer residence instead Sad

Spero · 14/07/2012 22:39

Hidden home, that is not true.

Last month in one of my cases the judge refused to make an order for direct contact as father refused to accept he had been violent despite a fact finding where it was found he had. This father can send four cards or letters a year.

It is rare to refuse contact but it does happen. But you need evidence to back up what you are saying, police reports, medical reports etc. To cut a father out of a child's life is serious and big decision so courts are understandably not keen to make such a decision on just the assertion of one parent.

hiddenhome · 14/07/2012 22:44

It is rare to refuse contact or order indirect contact. Even violence against the mother is not taken that seriously as long as the 'man' can prove he is no direct threat to the child.

Mothers are threatened with residence transfers as well. Refusing to comply with contact is classed as being emotionally abusive towards the child and emotional abuse is grounds for a residence transfer.

KatherineKavanagh · 14/07/2012 22:49

Sassy beast, where have I mentioned holidays?? Not here. Yes, plenty if violent men do get access. However, much to your surprise sassy no bee in my bonnet here!!

I am rare it seems..... My ex got awarded zero contact. I got a section 91(14) whereby he could not make further application to court for seven years. Nothing. He got nothing.

MAPPA evaluation and forensic psych assessment nailed it. Ok sassy?

Spero · 14/07/2012 22:52

I will accept it is rare, but you were a lot more absolutist in your first post.

Equally it is very rare for residence to be transferred. It has never happened in any of my cases in 15 years. It has been threatened a few times, and was a deserved threat as in each case the mother was making up absurd allegations against the father.

If a father is violent, this is a very relevant issue which the court will investigate. Google the case of re L, the judgment of Wall LJ and the evidence of drs Sturge and Glaser. It has been recognised for a long time that to be violent is a massive failurein parenting and the courts cannot simply assume contact is in a child's best interests.

Original poster
SugarWay · 14/07/2012 22:57

I've been thinking about this very carefully. My friend has been incredibly reasonable to her ex over many months. She tried to stay friends with him despite all advice for many months after the knife incidents. She worked very hard to get him to agree to not contest the divorce, and the day after the divorce he had turned up on her doorstep trying to restart the relationship. Her response was "we are divorced, leave me alone now" and shortly after that she got the injunction for him to say 100m away from her and her home.

The way she sees it, if he had been sensible after the divorce she would have tried to remain friends for the sake of her daughter. But since he has been such a complete nutter since then, any sympathy she might have had for him has been lost.

The final straw was when her parents were having a jubilee party and he was hanging around in the street outside. It was her mum that called the police and got him arrested.

She then moved house and changed her number and changed her car, and he still found her again.

Given the above, what approach should she use when she goes to court?

OP posts:
Kladdkaka · 14/07/2012 22:59

I was in a similar situation many years ago. I agreed to contact at a contact centre only. My dad took my daughter along for me. Once my ex realised he couldn't gain access to me there, he dropped his application for contact and never saw her again.

Spero · 14/07/2012 23:01

This isn't about tactics. I am wary of your use of word 'approach'.

The court wants to know what is in this child's best interests.

It is in her best interests to know her father unless he is too big a risk to her safety orthe safety of her primary carer.

So what risk does he pose? And what evidence do you have or can you get?

Spero · 14/07/2012 23:03

Food point Kladdkaka. In my experience, cases with violent fathers often end because the father drops out of the proceedings having lost interest (or goneto prison).

Spero · 14/07/2012 23:04

I meant 'good' of course.i am not sure what my iPad thinks a 'food' points.

Bossybritches22 · 14/07/2012 23:06

I agree with Kladdkaka, play him at his own game.

Agree access at a contact centre only, with full supervision for the safety of the LO. It shows willing, your friend will be safe as will her daughter & if ( as it appears) he is only doing it to get at his ex then he will soon lose interest.

Horrible situation to be in good luck to her.

KatherineKavanagh · 14/07/2012 23:07

My transfer of residency comment was aimed at the 'what would happen if she was sent to prison' question. If it got as far as that, which is rare, then would court not consider the child going to someone with PR?

Spero · 14/07/2012 23:10

If a mother goes to prison, child doesn't go to father just because he has PR. If child has never met father or doesn't want to go to him, PR is pretty meaningless. Usually there is no where for child to go but foster care which explains why imprisoning mothers is rarely an option as it just hurts the child.

Original poster
SugarWay · 14/07/2012 23:13

I think Kladdkaka's suggestion is an excellent idea. I will suggest it in the morning. Thanks again for all the replies.

OP posts: