Principles - do they go out of the window when we become parents?

[Emphaticmaybe]

Just wondering how far parents will compromise to ensure their children's welfare and happiness even at the expense of often long held principles.

As a socialist I've encountered this in the past with the dilemma of a very unhappy ASD child in a state school. I would have never even considered private if not for his deep unhappiness at the time. I was surprised at myself but my principles seemed ridiculous in the face of his suffering, (he did in fact return to the state system after HE.)

There are lots of situations as parents where we have to make difficult choices that are in conflict with our values: the atheist and church schools, Christians and private schools, vaccinations, the environment etc.

The recent case of parents covering for their child after he had murdered his girlfriend is the extreme but many parents would admit to not informing the police over minor infringements their children may have committed.

So what are your experiences and is it even reasonable to expect parents to stick to their principles?

theodorakis Fri 13-Jul-12 13:07:50
When I met my other half he was an eco fusspot and leftie. Now we live in the Middle East and drive a Hummer and pay no tax. That's because he wants the best life possible for his family. I don't really get why you would make your child suffer for the good of a society you don't know and, frankly, your gesture will not have any impact.

One of the most unintentionally hilarious posts on MN ever.

Middle East? No, would never move there.
Hummer? No, would never drive one.
Pay no tax? I believe in paying taxes for the benefit of everybody in the country.

I am not knocking socialism, I just don't really get it. I grew up in a very left wing house and endless protests were attended, ernest meetings held late into the night. Until my sister was bullied and then they sent her to Bryanston. Until Granny was dying in NHS ward from malnutrition and pressure sores and they moved her to Bupa.

Greythorne it is fairly safe to say i wouldn't want your life either. And whilst all of the things I say are true, I am not such a twat that I was being not tongue in cheek. Hee hee to you too.

Being a socialist doesn't make you actually cleverer than everyone else, it just makes you think you are.

theo

Back peddle as much as you like.

You say "he wants the best possible life for his family"

That's where you went wrong. A materially rich life but one lacking principles is not "the best possible life for your family", IMO. And that's where we differ.

Don't need to backpeddle, I am not in any way bothered by you. I am glad I don't pay tax, I am glad I have a safe car and I am glad I don't live in a glum shithole in surburbia using the failing shitty services that are not up to standard. I am not a socialist therefore I do not care at all about sacrificing the health, education or safety of my family for a society I don't care about. There you go dear.

How can you want the best for your family and send them to a shithole school where they may not be safe? Would you really not go private to save your child's life?

Theo

I think you may have missed the point of this thread.

It's about people who start off with principles and consider sacrificing them once they have children.

You appear never to have had any principles.

I do have principles but I am not a socialist. My husband, however has changed. I didn't change him, he simply wanted to have the best life possible for his family,

Again, I am not stupid because I am not a socialist.
Hiding now, a pointless discussion.

Greythorne

Theo

I think you may have missed the point of this thread.

It's about people who start off with principles and consider sacrificing them once they have children.

You appear never to have had any principles.

No, she just doesn't share your principles. Which means she isn't a hypocrite.
Theodorakis is completely honest about the way that she lives. She's not trying to, like some, couch a bullying attitude towards other people's lives in left-wing 'principle'. Her life and her family's lives are theirs to live, not the state's.

Good on her for being honest about it, which is far more than can be said by the hypocritical Guardianistas who claim that it's OK to send your kids to private school and campaign to stop others doing the same.

Out of intrest and because I'm confused can anybody tell me what my views are called.

I use private schooling/healthcare not because I dislike the state system or nhs but because I think as I can afford to I have an obligation to do so and not use funding that i don't have to.

I have no negative views towards people in a different suituation than me,
I think the benefit system is essential but wouldn't use it
I belive I should pay all taxes and never use loopholes
I think everyone has a duty to look out for anybody more vunrable no matter what causes the vunrability.
I don't bother with organic products but do try to buy local produce
I don't fly for none essential reasons like holidays but do for work but I do have holidays as if I'm going anyway for work I will often tack on an extra week.
I don't buy stuff that is not really essential apart from Xmas and birthdays,
I reuse or recycle as much as I can
I hate the everything is disposable way of thinking
I won't use disposable baby products and never sell anything when Im done with it I give it away to anybody who needs it
I don't belive in violence as punishments or not paying a fair price for fair labour and try to make mostly ethical purchases.
I have a live and let live attitude but try to treat everyone with respect.
I probally have more stuff than I really truely need and probally concider some things that others wouldn't as essential and have a bigger house than I need but I don't really see this as a problem for me
But I am fond of gas guzzerler cars

OK, Theo, talk us through your principles and then let's discuss whether you would compromise them. That, for the record, is the point of this thread.

Hmm... flatpackhamster, I guess the reason I'm struggling with your POV is that I don't equate holding the ideal of wanting a great standard of education for every child provided by the state with wanting to stop people from being able to send their children to private school if current state provision is inadequate or unsuitable for their child/circumstances.

I do think its unfair that the children of poorer parents do not have that option. But I think the way to address that is by improving provision in the state sector, not bashing those who do have the ability to opt out.

Maybe I'm not holding the exact same principle that you think would be compromised by sending children to private school (though it is unlikely to be an option that would ever be available to us).

In the event that we did have that option... I wouldn't immediately jump for it, unless I felt that it was likely to provide a better all round education than local state education (or my other option of home educating). I don't actually think that's a given for every student that private = better. I certainly wouldn't do it just so my child could socialise with the children of the rich and powerful in the hope it would further their career prospects? I'd do it if the education provided was better and more rounded than my other options though.

flatpackmaster- the whole point of this thread is about the conflict of the very natural biological urge to do the best for our children while not completely abandoning our principles or disadvantaging others.

Spiritedwolf's post was interesting - what you call hypocritical I would say is at least a step up from doing nothing to change the status quo and still taking advantage of a two- tier system - that is much more of a 'I'm all right - sod everyone else' attitude.

Is it Ideal to be part of a system you oppose? - no but I think the majority on this thread have agreed that it would be very difficult to leave our own children to suffer because of our personal principles. It really isn't black and white.

However I think if an individual did not actively campaign for a better system for all, but only took advantage of it, it would be hypocritical.

theodorakis Fri 13-Jul-12 13:26:29
How can you want the best for your family and send them to a shithole school where they may not be safe? Would you really not go private to save your child's life?

Who said this?

I think you just come to see your principals dont always lead to good out comes for your child and i think its always easy to be a arm chair pundit but when you actually have children you get a realness check

For inatnsce i was very much in favour of the Nhs until my child faced a two year wait to see a child psychologist.

My sister in law was all womens lib (until she had her girls )and a women should always work wanted her children to see a string working woman yada yada didnt want to rely on a man very high flying

1 year on she has left work and is a full time sham long and short of it was kids were not happy at nursey the nanny was a disater she ened up a jack of all traeds and a marster of none her work was suffering nd the girls were becoming wild

When they were 15 months she had to go to paris for work for a month thinking she could do it all left them with nanny when she came back girls were calling the nanny mum and her by her name

there is absolutely no way at all that I would pay for private education and I would never ever attend church to get my child into a certain school, mostly because I don't want to raise my child to be taught fairy-tales about god etc.

Not a dig. Only because the thread title made me think of

No, I have never compromised my principles. I am a practicing Christian so our DC went to cofe primary in a leafy part of London. DS went indy at 8 and dd (after a 2 year disaster at a previosly elitist cofe school) at 13. Did not have to soul search to send them cofe or indy in the slightest. We made the right choices for our children and our principles are to do our very best for them.

Vote Conservative and am conservative with a small c. Pay all tax that we are legally required to pay and have a strong work ethic and belief in independence.

We all have private healthcare because it is convenient and more customer friendly for working people and if I have ever had to go into hospital I have welcomed the nice room, private bathroom and decent food.

I have a low emission car and DH has a GWiz. We have photovoltaic panels and do our best to be environmentally friendly.

We are honest and moral and try to put as much back into society as we have ever taken out. I have no problem with elitism or capitalism as long as things are achieved legally. I suppose many would say we have no principles, but actually I don't care.

What I find really irksome are those who claim to have principles and to disagree with any form of elitism because of their principles when actually even if they did actually have principles they couldn't afford to compromise. For example "we want Hector to go to the local comp, because we think it is really important for his overall development to mix with children from all walks of life". Fine, if the parents do and fine if the parents don't snigger over an estuarian teacher - not fine when the converse is true.

I agree with Chandon (I think it was), who said that bringing your children up with principles is basically our job as parents and part of society. Chucking them out as we go along makes a mockery of that.

I have a very academically able daughter who could have won scholarships to private schools, but wouldn't want to, because of how I've brought her up. She's doing well, and I'm sure she will continue to. I also have a daughter who is severely learning disabled. She's in state provision, because they don't hand out scholarships for that, but I wouldn't pay, even if I could, for her to go elsewhere. The provision we have is only there because we provide it as a society. Profit-making providers will never put it in place for everybody that needs it.

We would be living in a pretty shitty world if we all decided that I'm alright Jack.

My parents sent me to a catholic school because it was the only good school in the local area. My parents are not religious, they even had to lie and say i was a practicing catholic and they guilt tripped the local priest into signing a form saying i went to church every week.

Marriedinwhite - I know two committed Christian friends who have actually felt the private school system to be in direct conflict with their faith. They make references to Christians being, 'the salt of the earth' and not wishing to be separate to the majority of society because of privileges based on wealth even though they could afford to. They are quite evangelical and possibly see this as a way to show their own commitment and encourage others to see Christians as 'suffering' along side them in the state system. This is how their principles play out in a real life situation.

Whyohwhy - listened to the song - yes the dilemma in a nutshell,[ grin]

Whoops,