To wonder why on earth you would not vaccinate your DCs?

[olimpia]

I hear from another thread that some people choose not to vaccinate their DCs at all and I'm genuinely interested to hear why because I can't think of a single reason not to. I can perhaps understand opting out of the MMR if someone believes the bad press (not that I do) but all the other vaccinations? Why, oh why?
(not a troll! Just relatively new to MN)

Did they not have the immunogobbulin alice? Had they ever been vaccinated? Tetanus is extremely rare and the majority of cases (of which there are less than 7 a year) are in the elderly/drug users and people with diseases that cause circulation problems such a diabetes.

yes they do bumbley. But I think we would need three trips, which is impossible to organise childcare wise with ds1 - as we live a long way from London (not to mention £££'s). We couldn't take ds1 with us unfortunately.

I think when the kids become teens they can have single tetanus. In the meantime we keep an eye on wounds (although ds3 is a nightmare with splinters!)

I had a potential tetanus wound a couple of years ago (a dog bite - reasonably serious)

I am fully vaccinated, and have had my lot where tetanus is concerned (it is not recommended to give more than 5 overall - you are considered fully vaccinated)

I went along to get wound treated, fully suspecting to have to argue my cause wrt not having another tetanus shot (wound was bleeding freely, and clean-able), but in fact it was the nurse who first mentioned that another tetanus jab was not recommended, and instead to keep an eye on it, and return immediately should any symptoms come up.

it is certainly not the case that any wound is an immediate tetanus concern - there are very specific factors involved.

wrt social responsibility, there is a very interesting thread in vaccinations, where posters are discussing the fact that giving the chicken pox vaccine is not the best thing for the population overall (less wild disease circulating, so less natural immunity boosts for those who have had it), but saying 'but my child/ren are such a small sample size that it isn't likely to affect anyone overall, so I'll go ahead and do what is best for my child, rather than best for the population as a whole'

funnily enough (since they are going ahead with a vaccine, rather than refusing one, albeit for purely selfish reasons), there is not a single criticism of this approach... yet turn the argument on its head, with posters saying the risk to their child is too great, so they will (selfishly, if you want to see it that way) not vaccinate, and suddenly there is a whole flood of posters criticising.

Like you I came to the conclusion that tetanus seems to be found mainly in the elderly/fully vaccinated (in the UK anyway). Obviously if the kids trod on a rusty garden fork, or had a puncture wound inflicted by a dog we'd get the immunogobulin

DS2 had a horrible cord infection at birth which could have been a tetanus risk - but he was too young anyway for the vaccinations.

Alice, do you realise how small a risk 1 in 30,000 in? Do you realise how many everyday things that we do carry a much higher risk than that? That was from 1 link from the US that someone posted yesterday. There have been zero deaths recorded from rubella and/or mumps in the UK on the HPA website.

Oh interesting dino.
That's my beef with mumps vaccination as well really. It's nearly always mild in children, more likely to be serious in adults, but there's little circulating disease. Even those who have had mumps naturally need little boosters to keep immunity topped up.

It's virtue of the success of vaccination programmes that these terrible diseases are so poorly understood by the general public.

My 70 yo neighbour never stops whiring on about the terror stories of polio and measles. We forget, infortunately, so quickly what these diseases were like. Thankfully, governments have continued to vaccinate populations despite a minority who disagree.

Where vaccination has gone out of favour, we see a recurrance of disease. We can't use the logic 'because the disease isn't prevalent this year I don't need to vaccinate'

All I know about the guy who got tetanus is that he was in his 20s.

"There have been zero deaths recorded from rubella and/or mumps in the UK on the HPA website."

Um, might that be because of the vaccination program, perhaps?

What's your point here?

do you realise how small a risk 1 in 30,000 in? Do you realise how many everyday things that we do carry a much higher risk than that?

Umm, like vaccinations...

From the Nature paper That was a known risk of the vaccination, which causes roughly one case of the disease per 2.4 million doses, often in people with an immune deficiency.

LeBFG, some people go on about how horrendous CP is and tell terror stories about it. My sister and I had measles when we were younger and my mum and her siblings all had it. They don't tell any terror stories about it at all. It was just one of those things.

But research is showing that some people diagnosed with autism have an immune dysfunction. Are you now saying that those with immune dysfunctions are at more risk from vaccinations?

My 86 year old neighbour has refused all vaccinations her entire life. I thought we weren't allowed anecdotes.

Anyway, why are we talking about mumps and rubella (which are very unlikely to cause death) and not the more dangerous measles?

The OP asked why people don't vaccinate, and I said that the people I know seemed to be unaware of the dangers of catching those diseases.

I remember being taken into a shop with my friend's mum when i was in supposed quarantine with measles (but wasn't feeling ill anymore and was due to go back to school soon) and I put my hand on the food counter. My friend's mum bellowed 'get your hands off the counter you've got measles for goodness sake' and rolled her eyes at the woman by the till, who rolled them back.

Can you imagine doing that now? The place would clear.

Ok Alice, what information do you have that mumps and rubella are deadly diseases? What did you base your decision that makes you better informed than your friends?

I'm talking about mumps and rubella because you mentioned them in your earlier post about your friends not thinking they are dangerous and couldn't kill you.

"I'm talking about mumps and rubella because you mentioned them in your earlier post about your friends not thinking they are dangerous and couldn't kill you."

I was mentioned all three, but you dropped the mention of measles.

My point was that my friends didn't realise that the diseases we vaccinate against could potentially be a serious risk to their DC's health.

Mumps: from the World Health Organisation:

Mumps, caused by a paramyxovirus, is generally a mild disease with fever, headache and swelling of the salivary glands, but complications such as meningitis (in up to 15% of cases), encephalitis or orchitis may occur. Although the case-fatality rate of mumps encephalitis is low and overall mortality is 1/10 000 cases, permanent sequelae occur in about 25% of encephalitis cases. Mumps is a leading cause of acquired sensorineural deafness among children, affecting approximately 5/100 000 mumps patients. Mumps infection during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy is associated with a 25% incidence of spontaneous abortion, although malformations following mumps virus infection during pregnancy have not been found

In the pre-vaccination era mumps was the main cause of viral encephalitis in many countries. By 2002 mumps vaccine was included in the routine immunization schedule of 121 countries/territories. In countries where vaccination was introduced and high coverage was sustained the incidence of the disease has dropped tremendously and circulation has stopped. In countries where vaccination was not introduced the incidence of mumps remains high, mostly affecting children aged 5-9 years

Well I have just had a quick google. The annual number of deaths from mumps in the US was 2 (not sure which year - recently) - but no mention of whether they had other immune system problems which contributed.

However there were 5 deaths from 'flatulence and related conditions' so clearly farting is more dangerous than mumps.

Going to bed is highly dangerous as there was a whopping 450 deaths from 'fall involving bed'.

WHO mumps link

Actually going to sleep is very dangerous as there were 9 deaths attributed to 'exposure to ignition or melting of nightwear'

Rubela: also from the WHO

"Rubella is an acute, contagious viral infection. While the illness is generally mild in children, it has serious consequences in pregnant women causing fetal death or congenital defects known as congenital rubella syndrome (CRS).

The rubella virus is transmitted by airborne droplets when infected people sneeze or cough. Humans are the only known host.

Symptoms

In children, the disease is usually mild, with symptoms including a rash, low fever (

I still can't see what's so dangerous about mumps. Aseptic meningitis is nothing like bacterial meningitis.

Interesting that they mention autism there. I didn't know that the disease itself had been linked to autism.

Measles: also from the WHO

Key facts

Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children* even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.

*In 2010, there were 139 300 measles deaths globally ? nearly 380 deaths every day or 15 deaths every hour.

*More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.

*Measles vaccination resulted in a 74% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2010 worldwide.

*In 2010, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services ? up from 72% in 2000.

*Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.

It remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. An estimated 139 300 people died from measles in 2010 ? mostly children under the age of five.

Measles is caused by a virus in the paramyxovirus family. The measles virus normally grows in the cells that line the back of the throat and lungs. Measles is a human disease and is not known to occur in animals.

Accelerated immunization activities have had a major impact on reducing measles deaths. From 2001 to 2011 more than one billion children aged 9 months to 14 years who live in high risk countries were vaccinated against the disease. Global measles deaths have decreased by 74% from 535 300 in 2000 to 139 300 in 2010.

Signs and symptoms

The first sign of measles is usually a high fever, which begins about 10 to 12 days after exposure to the virus, and lasts four to seven days. A runny nose, a cough, red and watery eyes, and small white spots inside the cheeks can develop in the initial stage. After several days, a rash erupts, usually on the face and upper neck. Over about three days, the rash spreads, eventually reaching the hands and feet. The rash lasts for five to six days, and then fades. On average, the rash occurs 14 days after exposure to the virus (within a range of seven to 18 days).

Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases.

Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Complications are more common in children under the age of five, or adults over the age of 20. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia. As high as 10% of measles cases result in death among populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate health care. People who recover from measles are immune for the rest of their lives.

Who is at risk?

Unvaccinated young children are at highest risk of measles and its complications, including death. Any non-immune person (who has not been vaccinated or was vaccinated but did not develop immunity) can become infected.

Measles is still common in many developing countries ? particularly in parts of Africa and Asia. More than 20 million people are affected by measles each year. The overwhelming majority (more than 95%) of measles deaths occur in countries with low per capita incomes and weak health infrastructures.

Measles outbreaks can be particularly deadly in countries experiencing or recovering from a natural disaster or conflict. Damage to health infrastructure and health services interrupts routine immunization, and overcrowding in residential camps greatly increases the risk of infection.

Transmission

The highly contagious virus is spread by coughing and sneezing, close personal contact or direct contact with infected nasal or throat secretions.

The virus remains active and contagious in the air or on infected surfaces for up to two hours. It can be transmitted by an infected person from four days prior to the onset of the rash to four days after the rash erupts.

Measles outbreaks can result in epidemics that cause many deaths, especially among young, malnourished children. In countries where measles has been largely eliminated, cases imported from other countries remain an important source of infection.

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