To approve of a German courts decision re circumcision

[SlipperyNipple]

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I am Jewish by descent but an an agnostic. I think the time has come to say that being religious is not an excuse to carry out mutilation of small boys.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/circumcision-ruling-germany-muslim-jewish?newsfeed=true

Obviously Female circumcision is already illegal but the same protection should be given to boys.

I don't know about the tattoos and kosher thing. I'm guessing that same argument would apply to Catholics who choose to abort pregnancies. Does everyone practise the law of their religion perfectly? I reckon not. I am speaking as a Jewish mother following the covenants of her religion.
Certainly, you can do as you wish with your children. I intend to keep circumcising my boy babies.

No they dont and that is the point.
Why do Muslims and Jews hold on to this particular tradition and so many of the others?

One that the child has no choice in? One that causes pain?

'you can do what you wish with your children'
Can I, what anything?
Just because they are 'mine'.

You are following a convenant of your religion.

It's about time too

I've always thought it's barbaric and quite arrogant too, to slice bits off of babies in the name of culture, religion or anything else.

Moving on (slightly), what do people think the consequences of the ruling will be? Will parents abide by the law, or will we see large numbers of Jewish parents and Muslims refusing to comply and ending up in jail? What about rabbis - will they comply?

One would hope they would end up with the same sentence/punishment as anyone else who cuts a young baby unnecessarily.

What about the 30% of non Muslims and Jews mrsdevere? A lot of hate an ignorance and narrow mindedness on this thread.

Circumcison because of a big willy but small foreskin is quite common actually. Makes sex quite painful.

Circumcision is not doen because the penis is large, it's done because the foreskin is too tight - nothing to do with size.

Obviously a surgical procedure carried out under anesthesia for medical reasons is not mutilation in the same way getting your leg blown off would be getting it amputated wouldnt IYSWIM though you may still feel the same. Religous circumcision is carried out without anesthesia on the most sensitive part of a boy for no other reason then people 1000's of years ago did it. How is that reasonable and how can people stand and watch it happen. I wanted to punch mw when she did a heel prick never mind willingly handing my child over to have bits chopped off

You don't have to be under anaesthesia for a circumcision - it is a very quick procedure. My ds wasn't put under for it.

I'm not keen on circumcision, but outlawing it in the way the German courts have is heavy-handed and almost certainly counterproductive.

I am rather at these men stating publicly the reasons for their circumcision were because they well hung

I agree that you shouldn't cut bits off anyone without their informed consent (and with them being mentally competent to give that informed consent) unless it is medically necessary.

I'm not keen on circumcision for non-medical reasons I should have said.

I know a couple of men who've had to be circumcised in adulthood - which was no fun at all. It would have been far easier had they had the procedure as babies, although of course there's no way of telling which child will need it until much later on.

Circumcision of little boys without anaesthetic is absolutely horrific and should be illegal.

DS was the only boy in my NCT group who didnt have it (Jewish area) and I felt so awful for those little babies. Particularly the one whose mother had just "converted" to judaism so she could marry into her DH's family and then "couldnt watch" while her poor baby had to endure a circumcision with anaesthetic. Yeh, I bet you couldnt love. I gave my DS extra hugs instead.

Vile, just vile. Should NOT be allowed in this day and age.

*without

camaleon If you re read my post I think you will find I wasn't disagreeing with making it illegal. Merely pointing out that here (in a country where it is) that people who for religious reasons wish to have their boys circumcised, the illegality of it does not stop them from doing so.

many doctors refuse to remove healthy tissue these days

"Cynner Fri 29-Jun-12 15:28:30
To equate the murder of small children with the act of circumcision is absurd and immflamatory. I am merely stating fact, as a Jewish mother, I will always circumcise my baby boys."

The point is that "it's my religion" maybe sufficient reason for you to make choices about your body, but it is not sufficient when it is someone else's body, whether they are your child or not.

A young children is not capable of sharing your faith, and can not make an informed decision about whwther or not to have said medical procedure.

Suppose a religion mandated that at a certain age - 2, say - all boys must be given a light beating. Nothing to the face or vital organs. Just a bit of moderate suffering. I'd say that would be no worse than circumcision - at least a light beating would have no permanent effects. Would "it's my religion" be a good enough reason/excuse?

I'm with FioFio and Hack Mum. You can't get away from the fact that this is Germans telling Jews what to do. If anyone doesn't have the right to do that, it's the Germans.

Sorry Alurka, but really. Germans and any other nationality have no right to discriminate anybody because of their religion. There is a terrible history behind. But anybody in the German jurisdiction is accepting to accept the laws of that country and decisions of the German Courts. Or am I missing something? I am not getting the link some are trying to make here when the whole issue is constructed around the rights of the child.

Totally agree MrsBethel

Religion is no excuse to force an irreversible, painful procedure on your son.

My dad is Jewish, I lost many family members in the Holocaust. I will never get to meet them. :(

I would agree no matter what country. Saying 'Germany can't do that!' is a bit of a smokescreen IMO.

Have not read th whole thread as I do find this subject vey upsetting, but I hate the way that 'religion' or 'culture' or 'belief' is held up as justification for damaging helpless children

You don't get the link? Have some emptathy. Only seventy years ago, the Germans were so concerned with the rights of the Jewish child that they pushed them into gas chambers.

When Jewish boys become men they could speak out against circumcision. Instead, most of them are so 'damaged' by it, that they want it for their sons.

I didn't have my sons circumcised but I massively resent this measure which is simply cultural imperialism from a country that should know better.