many people genuinely do not understand that paying their tax is part and parcel of living in a civilised society

[dikkertjedap]

Or not?

In the Netherlands tax compliance is virtually 100%. Sanctions are extremely harsh if people/businesses do not comply. People moan at the high tax rate in the Netherlands but they also generally understand that it pays for the excellent Dutch infrastructure (roads, rail, telephony, internet, cable TV etc.), generally very good education system (at all levels) and good healthcare system. Basically the majority of people understands why taxes are high and why they have to be paid.

In the UK, people seem to be oh so proud if they find ways around the taxman (legal, illegal or grey), rather than understanding that paying tax is part of living in a civilised society. Not paying will ultimately result in social meltdown. A very divided society, with poor services (unless you can afford to go private), poor infrastructure, etc. - I would argue that the UK is hard on its way to social meltdown thanks to the utter irresponsible behaviour of the better off. Not sure the better off see it that way though?

If we are living in a civilised society then everyone should contribute to taxes not just middle and well off . If it went on better infrastructure etc then fair enough but it often doesn't does it, thats op what you have forgotten.

I'm not rich but to be fair can you blame them really for wanting to avoid tax when there's so many others not paying anything at all in to the tax pot?

It seems to be people who pay very little tax that think the wealthy should be taxed higher for the sake of 'a civilised society'.

Funny that.

Otraged@ what about those that don't pay any tax at all?

Don't be silly. There is a thriving tax planning industry in the Netherlands. Absolutely thriving. Just as there is in the UK. In fact, the Dutch absolutely led the way in international tax planning in the 90s, with Dutch mixer companies and what have you ...

You're being naive. Not as naive as the general public in the UK, though. Dave Cameron calling a comedian immoral for entering into a tax scheme that he knew all about and could have closed down years ago is the most breathtakingly cynical ploy I have ever witnessed. All to distract from chronic mismanagement of the economy.

Outraged Thats not true, I pay a bloody enormous amount of tax and my DH pays even more, nearly double mine.

We believe those who are wealthy should contribute the most to the society they live in and club together to pay for those who cannot look after themselves. So yes we feel there should be higher taxes, especially on those who are very affluent, as even when they are taxed they are still living to a standard that most will never experience.

Hopefully anyone who trusts in David Cameron is completely naive, the man is awful and the biggest spinner about.

Rachel, them too!

Ruby, I believe that the better off should pay more tax than those who have little, that's just common sense. But our position is that DH has actually turned down a better paying job because it would take him into the HRT bracket and we wouldn't be any better off. He might have chosen to go for it if the NHS hadn't spectacularly let him down, but as we have been forced to pay for private healthcare or take extremely unreasonable risks, we no longer feel obliged to pay as much tax as we comfortably could. Why should we pay into the system if the system is going to let us down when we need it.

There isn't a safety net for people in our position. We would be expected to lose absolutely everything we have worked for before we got a penny out of the state, and it's not like we have a huge amount to lose. So if tax loopholes present themselves to us, we will grab them with both hands!

I did just about crash my car I was laughing so hard when I heard on the radio that Shiny Dave had called Jimmy Carr 'morally wrong'.

Um, pot, kettle etc Dave?

I totally understand why people don't enjoy paying tax. However, without us paying tax the social fabric of a country will crumble. It is a necessity, not necessarily enjoyable.

I also understand the well off arguing that they should not have to pay tax for say the NHS as they already shell out a lot for private insurance (which by the way does not cover A&E!), however, it still does not make it right to try to avoid paying tax.

We are part of a civilised country (at least I hope so) and paying tax is one of our duties as responsible citizens. At least that is how I think about it.

pyjama: "perhaps there'd be less tax avoidance in the UK if people felt they were getting value for money."

Maybe if people didn't avoid paying their tax, public services would be better.

OP Yanbu.

@SpottedGurnard re Dubai, yes I would say that it is not a civilized place, mainly because they still use slavery. And for many other reasons. Absolutely not civilized.

Remember, we judge a society by how it treats it's most vulnerable.

You get a lot more for your taxes than just healthcare and education, you know. Services which even rich people need to use

Police
Fire brigade
Courts
Transport infrastructure
Armed forces
Energy infrastructure
Arts, culture, museums
Environmental health
And let's not even begin to try to list the vast amount of administrative infrastructure which, actually we all need in order to, say, get a driving licence, register a birth/death/marriage, vote...

Plus the welfare state is there as a safety net for everyone and I would be if anybody, no matter how rich, thinks they could never be in danger of finding themselves homeless one day.

I am not saying public services are fantastically run - many of them clearly aren't - but I am saying that even if you pay for private education and healthcare you still live in this society and should pay for it along with everyone else.

And also - what is this idea of people who 'pay no tax'? We all pay tax even if it is just VAT.

But if you earn more, you pay more... 25% of 75,000 is more than 25% of 30,000. and 25% of several million is a lot more! If it were a simple flat rate after a high-ish threshold more people would pay tax, more revenue would be collected, and there would be no ambiguity in the system to hide avoidance and evasion.

Companies would have less reason to use fancy tax evasion systems, there would be better reason to employ more people.... It certainly couldn;t be any worse than it is now!

Okay, so explain the following to me:

1. The fact that the government does not produce accounts. So we, the taxpayers, cannot see what things they are not paying for and deferring the debts to the next generation (our children).

1. How does the government get to declare wars on places like Iraq, forcing me as a taxpayer to foot the bill (unless (1) above applies).

1. How come there are not far short of 100,000 quangos in the UK, all or mostly endowed with public money, accountable to no-one.

1. Explain the railways. Explain why they cost the taxpayer more than any other country in Europe and why fare prices are higher here than anyone else in Europe. And when you've finished explaining, start apologising.

1. Explain the education system. Explain why our undergraduates cost more in terms of fees than any other country in Europe. Explain why our children's education is lagging behind in international league tables. And then start explaining why our school children cost as much if not more to educate than the rest of Europe.

I am paying for this chronic mismanagement and I am heartily sick of paying for it. It really is time for some accountability in public finance.

Hopefully is absolutely right - international investment structures often feature Dutch entities as a means of minimising tax. Not sure you entirely know what you are talking about. That aside, OP - you are criticising the better off but I think you will find it is the better off who pay the vast majority of the tax in this country, even if a handful of celebrities and the super rich find ways of avoiding it.

I do understand Outraged that for some people its sings and roundabouts and tax can have a major influence on peoples incomes and personal situations.

I was just trying to say that we pay a lot of tax and although sometimes we have had the option to avoid it, as for example some of DHs colleagues are in some type of thing (I don't really understand it tbh) to reduce their tax but DH and I sat down, talked an decided it wasn't for us because its not what we believe in.

DH is in the highest possible tax band and I am a Higher Rate payer as well as having my own business which is a whole other tax story but when we look at our lives we have gained a lot from the state.

Both of us were state educated, as were our parents, my children were born at NHS hospitals, we drive, we are always at free museums we use public transport, we've been married etc etc. We chose to state educate our DC over private (because of our personal beliefs).

My Dad had a heart bypass that DH and i paid for privately because of problems he had with the NHS and I know if we had to privately fund all of the services we have made use of it may or may not be equivalent to the tax we've paid but I feel happy in the knowledge that someone somewhere did get the bypass on the NHS because they needed it more and weren't as lucky as DH an I (simplified version I know).

(Not all for you Outraged, just a general post )

I don't mind paying tax, it's what it gets spent on that pisses me off. And how taxes are getting higher (for some) yet we're getting less out if them. And there's cut backs happening everywhere.

Im on a low wage, but I still think each and every person should only pay the same percentage of tax. Why should someone who earns more be penalised for earning more... I don't get it.

Maybe if we stopped bailing other countries out...

Just read Hopefully post. Which I do agree with in that we were absolutely furious about the war and other military and police actions and do completely feel that we don't get value for money.

I suppose what I'm saying is I feel all of the irritation about things like quangos etc and the bailing of the banks and pissing of money on absolute bollocks but try and focus on things like hospitals, schooling, welfare. Both my DH and I come from immigrant backgrounds and (uk relative) poverty and I tell myself that I pay my taxes to help the people who are still in that situation. Although if Dave Hameron as his way I too may start to question my taxes even more!

yeah right, tax , any tax for that matter, surprise surprise , all tax over the year is treated as a "total amount" and divi"d up , ever heard of Philip green? go on google him , his wife their british income their tax returns , AND just how legal that is , mr cameron !!! or should that be mr j. carr ?

I would argue that the UK is hard on its way to social meltdown thanks to the utter irresponsible behaviour of the better off. Not sure the better off see it that way though?

Just starting to address the issue in the OP. This is divide and flipping rule at its worst. No, I don't see it your way. The reason I don't see it your way is because of the following facts.

1. The top 10% of earners pay something over 50% of the tax bill already. We already have one of the highest top rates of tax in Europe.
2. If you increase the tax rate even higher, you will hit something called the Laffer Curve. This is a position where you increase the rates of tax, but in so doing reduce the amount of tax income gathered, as the wealthy either migrate, stop working or use other strategies to mitigate an unfair tax burden.
3. The reason the UK economy is doing badly is because of decades of economic mismanagement and wasteful spending
4. The reason that society is divided and social mobility is on the decrease is due to a number of factors - family breakdown, terrible education system, housing issues, levels of crime etc. Not because the rich don't pay enough.

But surely if you avoid tax legally you are 100% tax compliant. You're paying exactly what the system says you owe and no more. The only difference is that you've done your homework and seen exactly what the rules say you have to pay

There isn't a safety net for people in our position. We would be expected to lose absolutely everything we have worked for before we got a penny out of the state...

Couldn't agree more.

I think that genuinely causes a lot of resentment.

Why isn't contribution based JSA actually based upon your tax/NI contributions like the state second pension? It might help the highly taxed to see that there's some realistic help for them should they ever need it.

Plus the welfare state is there as a safety net for everyone and I would be hmm if anybody, no matter how rich, thinks they could never be in danger of finding themselves homeless one day.

There are very few risks in life that cannot be almost entirely mitigated by carrying appropriate protection (life/critical illness cover/income protection etc)

Why do people not carry these policies as a matter of course? That'll be because they cannot afford them.

Why can't they afford them? That'll be because the government taxes everyone to within an inch of their lives.

I don't know where the government this idea from that they can do a better job of spending our money than we can - they've failed to deliver anything that could be described as 'fit for purpose' and certainly not value for money.

gets this idea from