many people genuinely do not understand that paying their tax is part and parcel of living in a civilised society

[dikkertjedap]

Or not?

In the Netherlands tax compliance is virtually 100%. Sanctions are extremely harsh if people/businesses do not comply. People moan at the high tax rate in the Netherlands but they also generally understand that it pays for the excellent Dutch infrastructure (roads, rail, telephony, internet, cable TV etc.), generally very good education system (at all levels) and good healthcare system. Basically the majority of people understands why taxes are high and why they have to be paid.

In the UK, people seem to be oh so proud if they find ways around the taxman (legal, illegal or grey), rather than understanding that paying tax is part of living in a civilised society. Not paying will ultimately result in social meltdown. A very divided society, with poor services (unless you can afford to go private), poor infrastructure, etc. - I would argue that the UK is hard on its way to social meltdown thanks to the utter irresponsible behaviour of the better off. Not sure the better off see it that way though?

Tell that to the Greeks.

Agree, and the Italians. And a lot of the very wealthy Greeks and Italians have sluiced their money to the UK ...

Of course you're right, but it's hard to tell the common person in the street that it's wrong when all the big businesses, celebrities and wealthy folk are doing it. I mean, WTF should we foot the bill when the folks who can actually afford to pay aren't?

A serious crackdown on corporate and personal tax avoidance is needed in this country, and loopholes need closing. It's crazy how much goes on. The vulnerable and disabled are having the money they need to live on stripped away while the businesses make fat profits without tax and the wealthy are laughing all the way to the bank.

Agree, it is just a pity that leading political parties seem so reluctant to tackle it. I therefore wonder whether they truly not understand that this is a very risky strategy in the medium to long term (e.g resulting in society breaking down)j.

I dont think you can compare us to the Netherlands. They have high tax and good services, whereas we have fairly high tax and shite services. I wouldn't mind paying more if what my family received in return was of an excellent standard, but it isn't and it's not going to be.

We are a tiny little island nation that concentrates far too much on trying to be a big player in the world and it's never going to happen. The Duch keep themselves to themselves and their taxes are spent on their own people.

In Dubai earnings are tax free. Are you saying they're not civilised over there?

"it pays for the excellent Dutch infrastructure"

Maybe this is hitting the nail on the head - perhaps there'd be less tax avoidance in the UK if people felt they were getting value for money.

I have never been to Dubai. Is there freedom of speech, freedom of movement for all? Do men and women have the same rights and irrespective of their nationality? Does everybody have access to good infrastructure (including education, communications, transport)? Does everybody have a reasonable standard of living with a social system which supports those who cannot work?

I doubt it somehow.

Pjmama, exactly. Too many people are aware of how slack the public sector is in this country, and rightly feel they can spend their money more wisely than bureaucrats can. Bring the public sector into 2012 and make it work for the interests of people paying for it, instead of the people working for it.

There is resentment because there is a spectacularly inverse relationship between how much an individual puts into the system and how much they take out.

If you were subject to a marginal rate of tax of around 80%, yet very rarely used any public services, I'm sure you'd be a bit peeved too.

Perhaps a less complicated tax system: say a flat rate for everyone after a fairly high tax threshold (say £20,000) so there were no loopholes, and decent accountability for those who spend our money would put an end to it?

Many people also feel that to get the best healthcare and education they can, and that their families deserve, then they have to pay privately for it. That is a reality that is forced upon many people who would prefer to use the state option but have been very much let down by it.

It's hardly surprising that those people are going to use legal methods to pay less tax if they can, because they are having to shell out for what their taxes should be paying for.

Cake:

Even a person who does not directly 'use' public services still benefits from them.

The hyper-rich in London who have private cover for everything and their own personal bodyguards still benefit from living in a society that doesn't necessitate them driving around in armoured saloons that can withstand a direct hit from a rocket-propelled grenade.

Also, a lot of 'loopholes' are in fact designed to incentivise businesses, which generate wealth and employment.

E.g. you can claim tax relief at 125% against any expenditure on R&D. Could well be seen as a 'loophole' but (theoretically) will increase GDP which benefits the whole of society.

Unimaginitive I disagree, we spend twice as much on the Welfare State (£200billion pa) as we do on the next most expensive public service (The NHS)

Law and Order (which I think you're referring to) is well down on that list.

People don't in genedral mind paying taxes. It is the shit is is spent one which grates

I don't think people on a low wage should pay any tax. This would help young people and a lot of women who work part time. Say start the threshold at £15,000 at the lowest.

Genuinely interested in this, having just accepted a job in a low-tax country for the simple reason that I am sick of being rinsed for tax in the UK!

YANBU - the Dutch seem to have it right when it comes to welfare/tax. They even still have a Royal family.

Didn't Bono shift his tax paying to the Netherlands as he was paying a lower rate of tax there than in Ireland? Looks like the Netherlands have been benefitting from some tax evaders themselves...

When we were at Greenbelt 2 years ago, Christian Aid had a 'tax maze'.

As you entered the 'maze' you were given some paper money(fake of course). You could choose to pay tax, or not, and the 1st part of the maze showed you how you would live.

The next part, where everyone ended up regardless of original decision, had boxes where you could choose what to pay for. DS2 (who was 3.10 at the time) chose high heels, a DS (of the Nintendo variety ) and something else, I forget what. DS1 (who was just 6) chose clean water, food and hospitals. Thats how simply the importance of tax was explained in there.

They also explained about hiding tax in off shore accounts by having choco-coins hidden in sand These were limited to 2 each, but no limit on how often you went in

But surely OP the reason the leading political parties don't do much about it is because they as individuals, their largest donors, big business who support them etc would find it detrimental to them to address the tax issue.

As a country we would be better off but I don't believe the people in government at the present time and actually the opposition have any other interests than personal power and gain, they don't prioritise the needs of the country as a whole they go for a select group. Also considering who votes in this country and who doesn't, the governments are more focused on pleasing that demographic of the population as opposed to the little guy who isn't that fussed about politics and just pays his taxes without much complaint.

1. we have about half as much land as you per capita. it makes everything more expensive
2. we have a widespread culture of not valuing education which means to becomes divisive rather than a leveller
3. we have a personal debt culture where lots of people have spent money they didnt have in the good times

i dont feel part of British society. there are no ties that bind us. i pay lots of tax & get much less in return than i put in. i would like to be part of a society where people work hard and value education but we are very far away from that. then paying more tax would be ok.

yes taxes are a sign of a civilised society

have just had a baby in a hospital, maternity leave, schooling etc even if a lot of things are being reduced at the moment I think I still am in debit compared to the taxes I have paid, and even if not I don´t resent paying as I am lucky enough to feel secure at the moment and have treats etc and honestly don´t need more,

really if you are a millionaire (a very long way out of my reach ), how many cars, houses, new clothes etc can you really need?? what is the point of having all this money, and it is sad that we use money as a way to value people when very rich people are often ruthless sociopaths who can climb over other people to get ahead in business and caring people end up working as social workers etc and sneared at for working for the state

Good for your DS choosing clean water and hospitals. he should be a politician one day!

Vivienne I will suggest it to him, but at the moment he wants to be a builder or an astronaut!