To not "get" all the fuss about tax avoidance?

[Peppin]

There is a difference between tax avoidance an tax evasion. Tax evasion is unlawful, tax avoidance is working within the law to minimise tax liability.

I should caveat this post with the fact that I am employed and all my income is taxed through PAYE. If I had more sources of income and more of it, I would not object to paying tax on all of it (by way of example, I never seek to reduce payments by paying cash to plumbers etc.), but equally, I would not want to pay more tax than I had to in order to remain on the right side of the law.

It seems to me that for wealthy individuals, paying an accountant to advise on minimising your tax liability is perfectly reasonable. If the government doesn't like the net effect of this, then it is the job of parliament to pass legislation that closes the loopholes that permit the "avoidance". So why is David Cameron bleating on about tax avoidance as though it were some sort of criminal offence?

think of it as the flip side of benefits cheats, who 'use' the system to claim for as much as they can, including having more children, demanding to live in houses most of us cannot afford, and although they may be sitting on the right side of the law, they are not helping the overall situation.

so whats the difference with someone who dodges tax? they are still using the legal side of things to rip off everyone else.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
if the able ones dont provide and the needy ones take too much..... people will be waiting on beds in corridors in hospitals for hours, no police will come when you need them, the fire brigade wont have enough fire engines to put all the fires out, schools will be reduced to holding pens, where nothing is learned but the kids are kept corralled and out of mischief.

I'm lucky ive been on both sides, a wage earner for 22 years paying my taxes, and more recently claiming jobseekers allowance, so i can see the arguement for both sides

It is just the same imsotired people are just so greedy imo , Im entitled to it so im having it its all mine

I agree with your post about making the tax system more attractive ellangirl.

I think Jimmy Carr is a horrid man -who makes money from picking on disabled people and people with downs syndrome who cant speak up for themselves.

i am very very happy that he has issued an apology and will loose some of his money.

Ive no problem with someone who lawfully avoids giving their money to this dumb ass governement who need to get their own house in order. David Cameron is a twunt - instead of knocking someone who is living by the law of this land why doesnt he sort it out so that
a) those earning huge amounts must pay tax at the correct rate
b) the tax that is paid is used in a way to benefit society as a whole and esp those that have paid in. Instead of looking after those coming into the country who havent paid a penny into the system; look after those who are now, after a lifetime of paying into the system, in need of help?
c) hes as vocal about those MPs who use our taxes in the most ludicrous of ways as he is people like Jimmy Carr.
Twunt Twunt Twunt.... go have another beer - dont forget the kids.

We pay tax into a pot, from which things we all want (roads, police, NHS, Social Services etc.) are paid for. Is someone avoids paying their share, then the rest of us have to pick up the slack, because these things still have to be paid for. So the avoider is not "sticking it to the man" they are increasing the burden on everyone else.

Yes that's the simplified version and you can object to it ("I don't want to pay for x, y, z!") all you want but that's the gist of it.

It doesn't matter if it's legal. Tax avoidance is WRONG. It shouldn't be down to everyone else to anticipate all the wriggles a parasite can think up. If everybody played fair, less effort/cost would be needed to collect what was due, and maybe everyone would have to contribute less because then it could all go on what it was meant for, not enforcement. Tax avoidance costs the non-avoiders.

babybarristerWed 20-Jun-12 22:34:31

Sorry only just catching up with the thread, kept my eye out for the JC thread.

Babybarrister, great post, sums it all up for me.

Novack I think he is really funny but looking at the Barclays sketch, yes he is a hypocrite.

I am revising whether or not to go and see him. Why should I pay my taxed income to go and see him when he probably pays less tax than me and my DH combined.

There may be a good argument for overhauling and simplifying the tax system. This will not eliminate all possible loopholes though. The fact is no legislation is perfect, legislators cannot predict everything that will happen in future to create a new loophole and the tax avoidance industry actively seeks out and creates misinterpretation. Loopholes are closed once apparent but that can take time if new legislation is required. Don't underestimate how brazen, determined and deliberately manipulative the avoidance industry is. They are not providing an innocent or helpful service but a deliberately exploitative one.

As I illustrated above, if 'because I could get away with it' is the basis for your relationship with the law and society, you are by definition immoral.

omg says in the mail (yes i like to read it online) that he lives in a 8million pound house bought for CASH

somebodys doing well

Tax avoidance costs us all so much more than the very small amount of benefit fraud.

I've heard a couple of people, on the radio, argue that it isn't the well known comedians fault, just his accountants advising him. Lets imagine, alledgedly, how the conversation went ...

Accountant, "To maximise your tax efficiency we can sack you from your current job, reemploy you in Jersey, pay you a minimal salary but the rest to the Jersey company. The co then loan you the difference, which you never need to repay.

WKC, "Eh" (Apologies to Cambridge University)

Accountant, " It cuts your tax rate from 50% to 1%"

WKC, "Where do I sign?"

I'm looking forward to seeing the revelations about the tax affairs of ShinyDave, Gideon, SamCam et al - not their income from parliament, but the tax paid (and the tax legally avoided) from the various trust funds / offshore investments / inheritances that they benefit from. Oh, hang on- no, that'll be the financial affairs that they will not disclose to the public.

I'm no Carr apologist, but the utter hypocrisy of Cameron moralising about tax avoiders, when large-scale tax avoidance paid for his very comfortable upbringing and expensive education, is sickening. If it bothers you that much Dave, feel free to pay back the tax that your family have avoided over the years. While you're at it, see about moving Gideon's offshore trust fund back to the UK so that tax becomes due on that.

Jimmy Carr is a very handy scapegoat for the Government. But I would lay money on him being a very long way down the long list of tax avoiders.

Ha ha ha at being a Communist because you don't avoid tax.

If you don't pay tax and take measures to pay less than you should, you are an immoral wanker. Jimmy Carr can act like it was all his accountant's idea and he was just a bit silly all he likes, I pay 25% on far less than he does and I'm more than happy to so he can sing for it.

Easy to say that when you're only paying 25% and have option to lessen your tax bill. You might change your mind if you had they opportunity, especially as it's not illegal. A lot of people are very 'moral' when they don't have many options.

BS Hownoobrooncoo. I have had the option of not paying tax and I didn't take it.

We pay plenty of tax, just that we might be paying more if we hadn't taken advice from an accountant. We even paid plenty of tax when we were living overseas and not using any services in the UK.

We don't have the options because we, er don't have the cash to pay for expensive lawyers and accountants. Oh yes, and we have moral standards. I don't have a problem with people legitimately reducing their tax but as a lay person, this scheme is set up solely to avoid tax.

As I've said before JC probably pays less tax than DH and myself combined. And I don't have a very lovely house in London, £xm was it?

A lot of people who use these schemes live in this country and as babybarrister so eloquently put it, enjoy the stability of this country.

Hownoobrooncoo, just reread post, it wasn't getting at you or your situation. I am very angry at very rich people & companies exploiting tax loopholes while the rest get shat on.

Hownoo, you may have legally avoided paying more tax than required.

Did you also use the money saved to get a leg-up into politics, become PM, continue to avoid taxes, avoid legislation which would create more taxpaying for your political donors, and then strike up a moral crusade about one of the young upstarts avoiding paying taxes?

It's just occurred to me what this reminds me of? The Claude Rains character in Casablanca - " Gambling, in here? I'm shocked!" Other character : " Here are your winnings sir".

Jimmy Carr was singled out because he's a massive hypocrite who lambasts other individuals working in the private sector for doing exactly what he has been doing. There are probably numerous other hypocrites in the public eye who do the same thing but maybe the fact that he makes his money from misogynistic "jokes" and taking the piss out of the disabled, with the justification that he can because he does bits and pieces for charity, made him a more satisfying target.

Tax planning is so common among people of many incomes, and it isn;t just reserved for the famous high earning celebs.
Bet most of the politicians on both sides are involved in various tax planning schemes.

How much do you have to be earning to make a tax scheme worthwhile?

Many people in the 40% income bracket do a lot of tax planning .

And often at 50% when they lose their persona allowance and pay half their income - many see that as a time to start some planning.