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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Greece needs humanitarian aid, not bail-outs?

130 replies

AKMD · 19/06/2012 12:12

Hospitals are begging charities for essential drugs.
HCPs are starting to see cases of malnourished babies.
People are cutting down trees to heat their homes.
Hundreds of thousands of people cannot afford to feed themselves adequately.

Isn't this starting to look a bit more like a humanitarian crisis than an economic wobble? I can't help thinking that if Greece swallowed its pride and left the Euro rather than let everyone else prop them up then it would be an awful lot easier for ordinary people to get the help they need. Shouldn't we be sending out MSF and food stations? Confused

OP posts:
Wheezo · 21/06/2012 16:02

Will read up - thank you for links Chaz

yep sorry typing too fast - I often think my wpm typing speed is very much faster than the processing speed of my own brain! - did put 9/11 after I had put September 2011

Why do you think the stress testing fails to work? Or if you do think they work, how can we say they work under X conditions but fail in the event of 'market dislocations' caused by events such as Enron, AIG, Lehmans, Bear Stearns, 9/11?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/06/2012 17:01

The problems with all stress testing are
i) the ideosyncratic events e.g. Enron - industrial scale fraud or even 9/11 which was horrifying but pretty unforseeable - think about the Iceland volcano effect on European air transport.

ii) the cost of preparing for an unlikely event v the cost of dealing with that unlikely event e.g. the UK's preparation for very heavy snowfalls - is it really worth spending as much as Sweden on snow preparation when we only have severe snow for a couple of days every few years.

Salonikia · 26/06/2012 23:53

Hi, I haven't read all the posts, but I get the general idea that a lot of people think that the main problem with the Greek economy is tax evasion.

Well I am Greek, have been living in the U.K. for the past 14 years, and before anybody thinks I'm scrounging off the economy here, I work a school teacher and have been paying every single tax I should (but despite this fact I have no say to where my money goes as I can't vote).

I have met however a lot of (respectable) people that evade tax and get benefits they don't deserve here too. People are the same everywhere, maybe the state took control a little later in Greece, but it's been ages since restaurants had to produce receipts there too. This is NOT what created this crisis. It just makes for interesting stories - like for example with Jimmy Carr here.

As some people mentioned before, Greece, which has been indebted to European banks since the 1820s (when they lent us money to gain our independence from Turkey, not to mention the nazis emptying all the national treasuries in WWII in the form of 'loans' they never paid back) has got caught in the severity of the central European banking system. There was a huge change in the economy since we joined the Euro, a policy that wanted us to be more in line with the economy in Germany, something totally unrealistic. It is mainly these loans from European banks a decade ago that we can't pay back (due to high interest) and tipped the balance.

But the people that pay the price in Greece are mainly civil servants which could not evade tax anyway or had small businesses. When I go back to my home town now, I am faced with what I call a ghost town. High streets where 7 out of 8 shops are shut. Families that can't feed their children. People that lose their dignity. Everybody knows of a case where somebody killed themselves. It is so bad it brings a tear to my eye every time I think about it. There is real poverty there.

There are also funny things that happen to the request of the German invigilators posted there, where the state issues 'emergency fund requests' twice a year to the value of 2/3 of a months salary, even to ..unemployed people! (I know such cases personally). Or where people are asked to pay extra taxes because they have a house or a car that are considered assets, even though people still pay the mortgages towards them and have no way of making a profit since they live in them!!

I hope I shed some insider light on why Greek people are protesting so much against the bailouts and the terms that come with them.

CoteDAzur · 27/06/2012 09:33

Salonikia Sad

Check out this graph of Greece's debt.

You will see that the problem is not at all the debts from 1820s, but the more recent debts that Greece was able to pile on because (1) it lied about its economic figures & debt figures, and (2) it was able to borrow at the very low EU rate, as if its economy is in line with France and Germany, for example.

And this is just wrong:

"There was a huge change in the economy since we joined the Euro, a policy that wanted us to be more in line with the economy in Germany, something totally unrealistic. It is mainly these loans from European banks a decade ago that we can't pay back (due to high interest) and tipped the balance."

Here you seem to be saying that it was EU who wanted Greece to borrow huge amounts of debt to come in line with major EU economies, which is completely false. "Come in line" with these economies doesn't mean, and it has never meant, "increase your debt". Greece had that brilliant idea all by itself, because it could: Since it became part of the Eurozone, it was able to borrow at the low rates accorded to the EUR.

Salonikia · 30/06/2012 19:09

uh huh

but I am not sure you got my point CoteDAzur.

Have we not been in debt for the last 200 years or had we enslaved and took advantage of half of the earths populations like our modern wealthy states have, perhaps we would have a stronger economy now and wouldn't need to borrow.

When things reach tipping point, then all hell breaks loose and the debt escalates. It is difficult to contain and deterioration cannot be linear. I do not see where I was wrong with the comment you quoted as you didn't seem to contradict it. Did you not like the fact that there the EU is accountable too?

I am not saying that we are not responsible for our debts, I am not deluded. But yes, the EU is largely responsible for promoting and encouraging unsustainable policies. There was a huge change indeed since we joined the euro, loans and investement were directed towards certain models and it was all about 'what we were told to do to make our economy similar (in type rather than value) to Central European ones'. You will not have felt that if you were residing in Britain, Germany and possibly Belgium and Austria, but ask other members of the eurozone

One of the main things we have to adapt to was European markets. Our market was deemed far too slow and certain changes took place to bring it in line with other European economies. Almost overnight since we joined the Euro, the price of milk and bread doubled, the average basic supermarket basket became for the first time more expensive than here, people were sent credit cards and encouraged to take up loans for any odd reason. Having lived and worked in Greece, Germany and the UK, I can guarantee you that in the after Euro Greece it felt more like living abroad. People suddenly behaved as if they were more wealthy and the goverment certainly backed this up. They also had a massive go at improving facilities and services as , fair enough, the standards were not the same as in mainland Europe. Of course all this comes at a cost, but one that we were majorly encouraged to take.

And as for the false figures, are you also aware that we were made to sign an agreement in 1992 that we won't ask for any WWII settlement money from Germany if we were accepted in the Eurozone? Huge scandal with a lot of evidence leaked in the press. Which is why they probably turned a blind eye at the figures.

Consider this:
A wealthy man approaches a working class man, let's say a builder, and encourages him to be part of his members only club, as this way he increases his customer base. He shows him his large house, collection of cars, profitable company and tells him they can be his too if he starts taking a risk and investing. He tells him that money need to change hands fast for a profit to be made. He takes him to his bank and become his guarantor in getting a loan to start his own company and a credit card to improve his personal life. However, the poor man has not got the connections or background (infrastructure) the wealthy man has, and he gets himself into trouble.

It is the poor man's fault for doing this, no doubt. But it poses a moral question..

And granted, Greek leadership must have made grave mistakes (although everything is grave when you are down already), but how would sacking people, cutting down their salaries by at least 1/3 and ridiculously increase taxes would help the economy take off? Because this is the instruction (not advice) from the German adviser in Greece, while I remember the exact opposite happening here when the crisis hit, where the people were supported and the economy kept moving. In Greece it is stale as almost no one has many savings left to keep consuming, and the knock off effect is terrible.

I can see that you have quite anti-Greek views, but do you think that the average person should suffer as Greeks do because its major players got it wrong?

And if anyone thinks that in today's world, outcomes are the result of one action or factor, and that there is transparency and honesty in politics, they are very naive indeed. Or anyone that thinks that politicians and governments freely choose their policies. It is unfortunate that the average British citizen is quite sheltered as everything here is very heavily censored. Corruption exists everywhere however and most of Europe is in trouble, you were just the first to go (and b e scrutinised for it).

On another less serious note, I think that Germany is hellbent on world domination at any cost: First they implanted royalty across European countries. Then they used their military power to control us. Now they use economics to make everyone enslaved to them.

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