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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Greece needs humanitarian aid, not bail-outs?

130 replies

AKMD · 19/06/2012 12:12

Hospitals are begging charities for essential drugs.
HCPs are starting to see cases of malnourished babies.
People are cutting down trees to heat their homes.
Hundreds of thousands of people cannot afford to feed themselves adequately.

Isn't this starting to look a bit more like a humanitarian crisis than an economic wobble? I can't help thinking that if Greece swallowed its pride and left the Euro rather than let everyone else prop them up then it would be an awful lot easier for ordinary people to get the help they need. Shouldn't we be sending out MSF and food stations? Confused

OP posts:
AKMD · 19/06/2012 22:26

Slight change of direction but did anyone see the starving babies in Niger on the news just now? Now sorting that out would be a good use of £600 billion. But they're Africans innit Angry

Back to the point... The Greek bail out is neither restructuring the Greek economy to make it fit for the long-term, nor is it providing immediate relief to a growing humanitarian crisis. It's just keeping Greece in a drawn-out failing neverland.

OP posts:
Wheezo · 19/06/2012 22:32

Chazs Yes a deposit taking institution is a bank and as such is regulated by Basel II (soon III) which requires deposit taking institutions (e.g. retail banks like Natwest, Lloyds etc) and therefore the FSA for the UK to hold 8% of the total value of their risk weighted assets on their balance sheets as their capital reserve. I get that bit.

But retail banks like Lloyds TSB (as was) and Natwest are not just retail banks anymore, they are also investment banks and so are operating in the financial markets in a range of roles. As I understand it, the central Treasury function of a bank will be looking to move as much off balance sheet as possible to reduce the amount the 8% represents. And the ways in which they can do this are to use mechanisms (which are perfectly legal and considered to be good market practice and as cote points out termed as 'risk management') like close-out netting. So say X bank enters into a master trading agreement with Y corporation and they do a number of different transactions under this agreement, X bank will only have to report the difference between what they owe one another from month to month (one lump sum) on their balance sheet and this will form part of the 8%. However if Y goes insolvent, all those transactions reported net are valued at mark to market but when something like Lehmans or Bear Stearns happens how sensible is it to value something at the price at which the market would pay for it (and base the total of capital reserves necessary at only 8% of that net reported value) if there is no market because no one wants to either trade with Lehmans so you can't trade out of your position? That bit I don't understand.

The wikipedia link I gave does make it clear that shadow banking also refers to practices which banks are also involved in.You don't have to not be a bank to be engaged in shadow banking.

So when I am saying banks are creating money by issuing debt I mean that if a bank only has to hold 8% of its total balance sheet, it is lending money it does not necessarily have because 92% of the total value of their balance sheet is available to be loaned and loaned again - which is why a run on banks is always possible (they will never have all their depositors' money to give back to them) and is pretty much essential to how banks operate. I accept that.

However as retail banks, who have investment banking departments, are also (a) working to get as much off their balance sheet as possible to lessen what they have to have as capital reserve; (b) plus taking collateral for those transactions which they are then also free to loan/sell-on (rehypothecation - at least where title transfer is effected); and (c) valuing those net reported transactions at mark to market value when there may be no market and the collateral they have for those transactions may have been sold on (as in b) then capital adequacy ratios for deposit taking institutions start to become meaningless.

Cote No you don't have to borrow to invest in or issue derivatives but the combination of practices above mean that banks are leveraged in the sense that the regulators have lost control over knowing what realistically any bank would owe in the event that a particular market or counterparty crashed and would therefore need to have in capital reserves to stay afloat - and even though banks are so adept at moving stuff off their balance sheet and the accountants are so good at valuing assets on the basis a market would exist for them to be sold in and the lawyers are so good at coming up with ways for this to work legally, it still doesn't remove the fact that any bank will owe a huge multiple of what it actually has for capital adequacy purposes. Margin is leverage even if you don't have to borrow. Therefore derivatives are absolutely about leverage.

"In finance, leverage (sometimes referred to as gearing in the United Kingdom, or solvency in Australia) is a general term for any technique to multiply gains and losses.[1] Common ways to attain leverage are borrowing money, buying fixed assets and using derivatives.[2]"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leverage_(finance)

apachepony · 19/06/2012 23:48

In fairness, it seems to me you're more at risk of poverty in the uk than in Ireland. The basic dole is almost 3 times as high - ?188 as opposed to approx £60. State Pension is still more generous than uk pension despite recent reductions in the non-contributory pension. Very little tax is paid under ?17000, no tax below ?10000, and I think about 3% tax on amounts between ?10,000 and ?17,000. currently there is no council tax or water charges, although a ?100 household tax was brought in this year to much opposition. The IMF is insisting that a proper property tax system and water charges are introduced i.e austerity, but it seems unlikely that this will be greater than exists in the uk. The greatest problem is personal debt - but even then banks will do anything in their power to avoid repossessing a family home. Repossession rates are less than the uk despite the v high level of arrears.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 19/06/2012 23:59

Wheezo are you really suggesting that Banks should mark to market against a market failure even when a market failure hasn't occured. That would surely lead to massive unecessary margin calls as the contract would be deemed to be further out of the money than it actually is.

The vast majority of derivatives are used for hedging purposes i.e. as a form of insurance policy to protect against risks e.g. interest rate hedging to mean that borrowing costs are relatively stable or commodity hedging used by food producers to stabilise input costs.

Close out netting reflects the reality of what happens in a lot of derivative contracts where only the net amount is paid when the contract comes to an end. Some contracts such as currency swaps are gross settled because people enter into these swaps because they need the currency.

Furthermore, don't forget that set off exists for banks for retail banks in the event of a due and unpaid debt. i.e. the banker's right of set off where a bank can set off a debit and credit for the same customer and pay the net amount.

If title transfer is effected then the collateral is the legal property of the Bank so they would be allowed to use the assets. Rehypothecation was popular because it resulted in lower charges for the customer however the customer was always free to refuse to allow it (and not get the benefit of the lower charges).

Wheezo · 20/06/2012 01:22

cote - Nope not suggesting Banks should mark to market against a market failure - just as I assume you're not suggesting mark to market actually works in the event of a market failure. What I thought I said was that the combined practices of mark to market,close-out netting etc and the way in which risk is weighted and capital reserves allocated all starts to make a mockery of the entire point of capital adequacy.

I'm afraid I'm with Warren Buffet on this - back in 2002 he said:

"I view derivatives as time bombs, both for the parties that deal in them and the economic system. Basically these instruments call for money to change hands at some future date, with the amount to be determined by one or more reference items, such as interest rates, stock prices, or currency values. For example, if you are either long or short an S&P 500 futures contract, you are a party to a very simple derivatives transaction, with your gain or loss derived from movements in the index. Derivatives contracts are of varying duration, running sometimes to 20 or more years, and their value is often tied to several variables.

Unless derivatives contracts are collateralized or guaranteed, their ultimate value also depends on the creditworthiness of the counter-parties to them. But before a contract is settled, the counter-parties record profits and losses ? often huge in amount ? in their current earnings statements without so much as a penny changing hands. Reported earnings on derivatives are often wildly overstated. That?s because today?s earnings are in a significant way based on estimates whose inaccuracy may not be exposed for many years.

The errors usually reflect the human tendency to take an optimistic view of one?s commitments. But the parties to derivatives also have enormous incentives to cheat in accounting for them. Those who trade derivatives are usually paid, in whole or part, on ?earnings? calculated by mark-to-market accounting. But often there is no real market, and ?mark-to-model? is utilized. This substitution can bring on large-scale mischief. As a general rule, contracts involving multiple reference items and distant settlement dates increase the opportunities for counter-parties to use fanciful assumptions. The two parties to the contract might well use differing models allowing both to show substantial profits for many years. In extreme cases, mark-to-model degenerates into what I would call mark-to-myth.

I can assure you that the marking errors in the derivatives business have not been symmetrical. Almost invariably, they have favored either the trader who was eyeing a multi-million dollar bonus or the CEO who wanted to report impressive ?earnings? (or both). The bonuses were paid, and the CEO profited from his options. Only much later did shareholders learn that the reported earnings were a sham."

And the relevance to this thread is that while I think Greece screwed itself over in some respects (the generous pensions, tax evasion, lying to get into Euro etc), the root cause of the financial crisis comes back to the banking system so instead of enjoying the snide glow of schadenfreude, we have to consider the rest of Europe (and surely the world) as soon to follow. We cannot continue to chase "market dislocation" from bank to bank and then country to country. At some point we have to admit the "market dislocation" IS the market and not something we can now fix up to its former money spinning glory. Too big to fail can also mean too big to save and the more institutions we decide are too big to fail and the more national governments have to conjure up money (quantitative easing) to try and stop the gap the more we are all deluding ourselves, so how far from Greece are we? If London's the financial centre of the world we may stay insulated for a little while longer but as the saying goes the bigger they are, the harder they fall. And the very foundations of London's recent financial successes (1980s onwards) are firmly rooted in derivatives.

EldritchCleavage · 20/06/2012 01:32

We are not like Greece because our underlying economies are completely different.The Greek economy is smaller, weaker and far less diverse than ours (name a Greek consumer brand, other than yoghurt, anyone?). It is also less transparent and the tax recovery rate is parlous, because tax evasion is so high.
Our legal and criminal justice systems are not going to enable that level of evasion and corruption to take place all of a sudden. That means, as I understand it, our economy has a great deal more credibility, which has a huge impact on our debt costs and levels of inward investment.
So we aren't suddenly going to become Greece. Which doesn't mean we aren't in for harder times, but everything is relative.

Wheezo · 20/06/2012 02:14

Eldritch I agree with that - Everything is relative - which surely means we are in for as just as hard times as Greece are, just in ratio to our economy? But I don't think you can really a measure a country's economic resilience by brand recognition - Bulgarians would recognise Greek bank logos as the banks that own 25% of their banking system - I wouldn't recognise them however. The fact I couldn't recognise a greek banking logo to save my life doesn't stop Bulgaria's economy being in danger if Greek banks collapse. Maybe it's comforting to write Greece off as an anomaly or completely a consequence of their own fault but what about Spain, Italy, all the new EU entrants (Balkan states with recent influx of Greek investment and Greek businesses) - the global nature of the financial system surely suggests the UK is just another domino waiting to fall in the chain of sovereign debt because even Germany can't export to itself when there's no one else to sell to so even the last man standing can't win - unless I suppose everyone takes the hit at the same time. And then all national economies would be in the same position we were before, still relative to one another. International politics would never let that happen but I do wonder whether S&P, Moodys etc could achieve the same effect by effectively downgrading every country's credit rating at the same time?

HeartsJandJ · 20/06/2012 08:47

Why all the denial about countries with situations comparable to Greece? Does it make people feel better to have someone else worse off and pretend it couldn't happen to them?

This house of cards will topple and every one of us will be affected.

Pretending that the Greeks are somehow "different" and more to blame than anyone else is blinkered and frankly odd.

JoanOfNark · 20/06/2012 09:02

Because they aren't comparable

Do you live in either Ireland or Greece? If not, shouldn't you probably defer to those that do, what with them actually knowing something about it?

HeartsJandJ · 20/06/2012 09:31

They are entirely comparable as I showed above.

A poor agricultural economy was offered the chance to modernise with European money. Both took that chance and began living above their means. Enjoy today and pay tomorrow. Both are now paying. I am not saying either was wrong to do it or that it didn't make sense at the time. But saying that Greece is worse or different seems just odd. Greece didn't create a property bubble as they did in Ireland and Spain (and here for that matter). Does that mean that Ireland and Spain deserve less compassion?

Actual people are suffering both in Ireland and Greece and Spain and all over Europe. Actual people, not apples or tennis balls.

And you don't actually need to be Greek or Irish to understand this.

EldritchCleavage · 20/06/2012 10:29

I'm certainly not arguing that Greece is an anomaly, nor that they are undeserving of compassion.
In fact, in my first post I said I did not think Greece got here on its own. The self-deception, lack of foresight and astonishing risk-taking of all kinds of financial institutions from here to New York, played its part. That hasn't stopped, which is why I feel we are in for harder times. But we ARE quite a different country and economy from them, and I think arguing we will end up in the same boat makes little sense.

FredFredGeorge · 20/06/2012 10:33

They're needing to heat their homes in June in Greece? That can't be good for the Greek tourist board.

HeartsJandJ · 20/06/2012 10:39

I don't quite know what you mean by "the same boat"?

People are losing their jobs and suffering hardship across Europe, it doesn't really matter to them whether they are Greek, Irish or Spanish, they are already in the same boat.

Laquitar · 20/06/2012 11:39

Oh come on Fred. OP has explained that she meant in the winter. In 3 months time summer will be over and old people will be freezing in their homes. Sad And it won't be 'their fault'.

Some odd posts in this thread

SpringHeeledJack · 20/06/2012 11:42
CoteDAzur · 20/06/2012 11:58

Oh ffs. I actually studied this stuff and worked in asset management, and my posts are odd? As opposed to those full of compassion but little actual knowledge of how economies & investments work? Hmm

CoteDAzur · 20/06/2012 12:03

Greece is an anomaly, in the sense that you would not expect a European country to act like a banana republic, cook its books, and lie to the world about its finances for years while living it up by piling up the debt.

Yes, economic crisis is global and so yes, everyone is in the same boat. But it is also true that Greece is an anomaly, which is why they are in deeper than anyone else, and they have brought it onto themselves.

FredFredGeorge · 20/06/2012 12:09

Laquitar But why focus on Greece for that, right now it's still a rich country compared to most, there are certainly an awful lot more people in a worse state. And the OP despite claiming to have studied economics is either deliberately lieing about the "hundreds of billions", or actually doesn't understand that bail out money is just loans, it comes back, it's not lost. And normally it comes back at a profit (The interest rates are lower of course than others would lend at, but they're still higher than the UK or Germany or the US or many other countries pay to borrow the money).

The Irish bailout was at ~2.9% Or 1% more than the UK borrowing rate.

HeartsJandJ · 20/06/2012 12:12

It is possible to understand economics and have compassion. Shock

The original question concerned humanitairan aid so concentrating on the human side of it is completely relevant.

EldritchCleavage · 20/06/2012 12:16

Cote, I'm just reading something that said Greece had claimed a structural deficit at 6% of GDP, then in 2009 after the election Pasok blithely admitted it was 12%. Astonishing!

HeartsJandJ · 20/06/2012 12:18

Also the rest of Europe did know that Greece was not being entirely honest about its accounts as they muddled the entry criteria for political reasons so Greece could join.

But you could easily argue each country is an anomaly to the rest. Would you expect a major European country to have kept on constructing whole towns willy nilly without realising there might be a finite limit on who actually wanted to live there. Two of them did but it doesn't make it any less gob-smacking that they thought this was a great idea.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 20/06/2012 12:23

Wheezo

There is a huge difference between derivatives used for speculative purposes and derivatives used to hedge risk - this is such a fundemental point. Failure to hedge risks properly, including through the use of derivatives, has lead to the failure or near failure of some companies.

Do you think that capital requirements don't take into account possible market problems otherwise what do you think the purpose of stress testing is?

As for too big to fail - perhaps you should read through the exciting new crisis management directive produced by the EU which looks at structures to deal with the potential failure of banks including minimising the need for recourse to public funds.

JoanOfNark · 20/06/2012 12:54

You didn't " show above" at all. You clearly know nothing about either society. You do actually need to be Greek or Irish to understand what it actually means to US, and how it affects US. How arrogant you are to decide on out behalf that we are just like a country that on a HUMAN level, we have nothing in common with.
We do not need humanitarian aid, thank you. And since you say this is the focus of the thread, why are you insisting we are in the same boat? We do not need medicines, we do not need tents to house the homeless, we do not need orphanages to house the children being given up by their parents because they can't feed them. So no, in the CONTEXT of THIS thread, we are not remotely comparable.

And stop mixing up economic theory with compassion and empathy. You can have compassion, think people need help, and still point out how they got into the mess in the first place.

FredFredGeorge · 20/06/2012 13:01

HeartsJandJ but if you believe they need humanitarian aid (which is debateable) it's got nothing to do with the question of if they need bank bailouts and similar. The pots of money are completely different so you don't conflate them, it's just misleading and makes the mistake that the bank bailouts actually cost the money that's in the headline (where they can actually even make a profit for the countries putting up the money)

alexpolismum · 20/06/2012 13:13

JoanofNark You have been criticising people commenting on the situations in Greece and Ireland by saying that they don't live there and don't really know what it is like.

Just how much time have you spent living in Greece, a country you have written so much about?

And just for the record, what you have said in your last post does not match my experience of Greece, a country I have lived in for 12 years.