to think if we fund religious schools through taxes, DD should be considered for a place?

[experiencethis]

I'm not originally from the UK, so maybe I am missing the point here. It puzzles me that whilst some religious schools are (partially) government-funded by taxpayers, they do not treat all as equals when allocating places. Our local state CoE primary is lovely and walking distance from our house. But looking at the local authority's website we'd have to get the local CoE church to validate that we are part of the congregation (which we aren't) and attend service a number of times per quarter (which we don't). DH and I would be happy for DD to attend a religious school, we think exposing her to different faiths and beliefs will make her a well-rounded adult (we have Jewish, Catholics and Buddists in the wider family). She will then be able to decide on any of them or none at all as she pleases. AIBU ?

*motherG- Religion is on medical records

Cat & ariadne I confess I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek as the issue is one that really annoys me.

I don't think that children should be labeled with the religion of their parents/carers. If I was a member of the Communist Workers Party/Conservative/Monster Raving Looney Party etc. no one would label my children as such.

But surely faith is a lot more fundamental than political beliefs

Ariadne- why is faith more fundamental than political beliefs- or indeed, any other hobby or lifestyle choice? I like gardening on a Sunday- can my children go to a special school for gardeners only? Can the state pay for it too?

Ariande - As a Christian would you attend a mosque every week and publicly submit to Allah in order to access a Council-funded service that you are legally entitled to?

But surely faith is a lot more fundamental than political beliefs
All the more reason that children should not be labelled by their parents. I used to have faith, so I take it seriously.

No, but as an atheist I might

Inertia - A school for gardeners ? My DD would love that

But you're not an atheist so you don't have to! Don't you get that is the whole point?

Some children get an advantage over others purely through an accident of birth ie being born to 'christian' parents. If parents have no faith and either can't or won't lie to play the system (as you seem to be keen to promote) then their children are disadvantaged.

None of the posters supporting faith schools have answered the hospital analogy, I would be really interested to hear how they would...

No, but as an atheist I might

Ariandne, thanks for answering the question. However, can't you see the contradiction in expecting people of non-Christian faiths or none to attend Christian religious services to access council services, when you wouldn't attend a mosque if the situation was reversed?

No, but as an atheist I might
really? Why would you think such hypocrisy would sit better with you if you were an atheist? Don't you have any intrinsic ethics?

No, but as an atheist I might Strange how all the atheists on this thread wouldn't. Empathy fail, much?

Catkins- you are not legally entitkled to a place at a particular school though are you,( or your child more likely )

I can't imagine a situation where a person pitched up at their local, NHS emergency department and was told, "sorry, you're an atheist, go to the one 10 miles away". I am not entitled to a place at a particular school but my application should be considered on the same footing as a Christian parent unless you are wanting to discriminate against people on the grounds of religion.

and i don't get the 'my taxes funded it argument' . your taxes fund many services you can't get access to.should there be no single sex schools?

It's not that argument. The argument is that my atheist money should be as good as your Christian money. I have never heard of a situation where 5 of 6 local schools are for boys only. I have heard that with faith schools. If that were the case DD and I would be campaigning.

Ariadne, no I'm not entitled to a place at a particular school. But a Christian parent can apply to and be considered by 100% of local schools, I can apply to 40% - with no guarantee in London that I'll get a place at all for my child.

Additionally, I can't even qualify for a leftover place at a local school once they've exhausted Christian applicants. My nearest school is 200m away. Their entry criteria states that if they haven't got enough local christian (Catholic) children, they'll then allocate to Catholic children from a list of named parishes in neighbouring boroughs, then Eastern Christian Church members, then other Christian denominations from anywhere - and only then will they look at local children. Obviously they never ever make it that far down the list.

The system is indefensible it just doesn't make sense. The outcome in our corner of this small city is that newly arriving immigrants (who happen to be mostly Catholic) take priority over long term residents (who happen to be mostly atheist). Not saying whether this is right or wrong but can see a potential for the system causing resentment.

WHat I don't get is that this discrimination doesn't work both ways...

Ok your child is baptiesd Catholic or Christian so that SHOULD mean your child can never be allowed to access any Community School that is ie not your Faith.

But at the moment Children on Religious parents (who believe ludicrous backward non-sense about men in the sky!!) get a free choice of ordinary school and Faith ones. That is unfair totally.

ALSO all this Faith stuff is really actually HIDDEN RACISM! I would love my child to go to a School in London to mix with all his peers. To really get the benefit of this diverse city.

But Faith schools use religion as a Criteria to keep out those with English as a2nd Language and tjhose who are poor/Free School MEals
IT is shocking, It is racism by the back door. It is selfish and the opposite of buliding up a community of ALL children.

I think those people who want a whole school for their group only should be ashamed of themselves. If you want a plcae to all meet together and raise money... then that building is called Church. Or fund your own private school (the C of E and Catjholic Church are two of the wealthiest organistions in the world) DO not take everyones taxes for your own select selfish, Racist club!!!!!

very very

and i don't get the 'my taxes funded it argument'
Many posters have answered this, it's about equality of access to state funded services. The religious organisations fund a tiny amount of the schools and yet are permitted to have a disproportionate influence on entry criteria.

should there be no single sex schools?
Each LEA has to educate all the children in it's area so as long as there are sufficient places this is irrelevant. But can you imagine the outcry if the girls schools achieved better results than the boys or vice versa? You can bet your life the problem would be addressed quick smart, maybe by changing the system - wow, there's a radical idea.

And you still refuse to address the hospital analogy...

Errrr ...Hmmm, my son attends a Catholic school where nearly 50% of children have English as a second language and a third of children on free school meals. Hardly racist or snobby.....

In fact DS's school prides itself on taking children who have been excluded elsewhere and keeping them with as much support as they can give.

I am sure some Faith schools are as you describe but so are many non-faith ones.

Oh and believing in Jesus is not "backward".

I think it was addressed upthread that, although your school may be like this, most aren't and there is a disproportionate class/money split. Mainly, the faith schools have a 'richer' parent mix than other schools.

Religion is backward because as societies advance the general trend is away from relegion. compare early civilisations worshiping the sun and Romans having lots of Gods. YOu don't believe in Sun god and Roman gods do you? Nor do I . But some still believe in some Relgion , generally more backward, less devlopped areas believe in it more. Eg witch craft and Voodoo in a poor African country religion there will be a higher % than in Western democracies.

It is childish to believe in a father figure in the sky watching over our best interests. To me it is clearly a refusal to grow up and want the security of a child (looked after by parents) when you are now an adult. And not accepting that your life is up to you. There is no father in Sky guiding you, even though you may want one!!

SOME faith schools may have decent ie average ratios of Free School Meals and Ethnic deiversity, but I have lived in 5 different boroughs of London where they did not.

ALSO you are wrong.... "but so are many non-faith ones." Er they can not be unrepresentative in such a cold calculated way of the place where they live, beacuse they only select on distance that is not possible.

The best a Faith school (which discriminates) can hope for is to be as mixed as its nearby non-faith school. By defintion poorer families, who have less free time or money and sometimes a less easy life, will find it much harder to waste half their weekends worshipping pixies in the sky!

MrsTP and Mothership get it - say your local area has a 50/50 girl/boy split. But 5 out of 6 schools are boys' schools. And if there aren't enough boys to fill places, then rather than award places to girls, the authorities will cast around for boys from outside the local area. Meanwhile hundreds of local girls fight to get into 1 school. That's what it's like being a non-Christan in some areas.

In some areas church schools are socially exclusive, in some (like Colouringins) they embrace diversity. That's not the issue. The problem is that the state funds a service which should be available to all, but there's no equality of access.