Should this man have been employed by a school? (sorry, long)

[merryohairy]

I?m divorced with one DD, and about 18 months ago XDH announced that he wanted her to go to a CofE secondary school (he rarely goes near a church). I wasn?t too happy ? none of her friends are going there, and we aren?t religious. Wanting to find out what he?d be getting her into, I decided to attend the church that is linked to the school with XMIL (we still get on well). From the outset I was honest with them about why I was attending over coffee after the services, and said there were several questions I had about Christian faith.

One of the vicars came up to me after one of the services and said he?d heard I was new and had questions, and offered to meet to answer them. He said he?d rather meet at a coffee shop because the church was busy and we might be disturbed. At the first meeting, he came across as charming and self-deprecating; at the end of it he said he was still in training and had to submit written case studies, and asked if I?d be a subject because he was interested in my point of view.

I agreed, and several meetings followed, always outside of church. He said that he was divorced, and ?understood ordinary people?s problems?. Several invitations to go to the pub with him cropped up, and to go round to his house; as he lived alone, and I was beginning to find him creepy and weaselly, I declined. He then dropped several questions about my sex life into the conversation, along with some snide remarks about the head vicar and several members of the congregation (he?s always charming to their faces). He also said the best way to feel close to God was to have an orgasm ? it always works for him

I asked XMIL about him, and she said he had been seeing a long-term girlfriend for almost a year. At the next meeting, he announced that he was taking me to lunch as a ?surprise?, and acted really flirty, asking about the colour of my knickers and again inviting me to his house for a meal and wine (?stay as long as you like, all night if you like?). I noticed that he was watching for a reaction, as some sleazy men do when they want to shock women.

At this point I mentioned his girlfriend; at first he denied that he was seeing anyone, then admitted it but said that he couldn?t get turned on by her, followed by obscene remarks about her looks and the appearance of her genitalia. Indicating a girl of 17 or 18 at another table, he said she was more his type and started describing what he?d like to do to her. I cut him off, pointing out age difference (about 20 years) and he replied ?they?re legally adults at 16?. I told him what I thought of him and he became very angry, so I left.

I raised the issue with one of the stewards, who said that he?d tried the same with other women at the church, including an 18 year old. During one meeting, this vicar had talked about working in some kind of social care work, and said female colleagues had made allegations about his behaviour towards a female patient. He said he had been cleared, but felt he had to resign. I therefore also asked about his CRB status, but she said he was clear. She then said that another woman had submitted a written complaint, so she would ?note my concerns?.

DD secured a place at the school where her friends are going (and is now very happy there), so having seen enough of organised religion I stopped attending, and explained why to XMIL. I have just found out from XMIL that this vicar has been appointed as chaplain at the linked church school; he was interviewed but the post was not advertised externally. She said that the written complaint was dismissed because it is impossible to prove what is said in private conversations between two people, and ?it was just a bit of dirty talk, he didn?t touch anyone?. As I am beyond horrified, I asked if I could see the parish Child Protection Officer ? XMIL advised against it, saying that he is a personal friend of this vicar and always defends him.

Am I being unreasonable to think this man should not be employed by a school?

WTAF with the 'unnecessary alarm' comment. The first principle of any complaint process has to be that it's honest and open. TBH, not really having an understanding of school chaplaincy I might not have advised contacting the school earlier on, but the fact that's she's told you not to contact them makes me think you should.

And why should you occur legal costs to make a complaint - that sounds like a thinly veiled threat to me.

The more you go into this the worse it sounds OP.

I'm the CPO for our local church (and thankfully our vicar is nothing like this!) I'm shocked at the (lack of) response of the church's CPO.

I don't think anyone has linked the CofE CPP yet - para 5.21 in particular last bullet of para.

That said, this is (as far as we know, based on what you have posted) more a case of "inappropriate conduct" than a child protection issue as it does not appear to have involved anyone under 18 so far? (unless I missed that bit?)

My concern would be that this pattern of behaviour is repeated with either U18s or vulnerable adults (who have the same protection in law as U18s)

Hopefully now the Diocese are involved they will do the right thing.

I'm surprised and disappointed at the reactions you've had.

Firstly - were these only private conversations....if they were part of his case study then they were part of his work time surely? Might that make them take it more seriously?

Also the point here isn't a safeguarding one primarily. He hasn't done anything wrong to under 18's but the way he has been speaking clearly already makes him unfit to be a minister apart from any secondary concerns about what he potentially might do in the future given the opportunity and authority. I don't know why the Church aren't taking that seriously especially as he is only a curate so they can simply decide not to allow him to progress....

Must be very frustrating for you. Hope you keep pushing forward with this.

Yes, why shouldn't you contact the school? If you're simply relating something that happened in a factual way, then they will decide themselves whether they find it to be cause for alarm.

So if he asks a 16 year old girl the colour of her knickers then no one will follow it up because after all its a "private conversation" he's hardly going to annouce it over the school tannoy is he!

You are doing the right thing following this through. Even if you can't get him removed from the school, at least if he does say something inappropriate to one of the schoolgirls, it will be known that he does have form for this and it will be harder to dismiss her complaint. His behaviour is an abuse of trust.

I think the worrying things for me are

• the fact that he talked in a seriously sexual way about a child/young adult that looked about 17. This makes me wonder if attracted to teenage girls, should he be working in a school.

• the fact he is approaching lots of women (including young ones) and being very sexually suggestive.

What ever you do stick to the facts when telling people and yes it is very appropriate to go beyond the local church with your concerns. Make a formal complaint against him to the bishops office and CC the school.

Glad you are going to talk to the school. I disagree with posters early on who seemed to be saying as he hadn't done anything but make mucky comments, there was no need to take matters further. This man is demonstrating a very unsavoury and yes, predatory attitude towards women. He's even TOLD you he has a predilection for school-age girls, so you can assume he is going to try it on with them in a similar way. That's bad enough, and already clearly a safeguarding issue.

However, no one can just assume that he won't escalate his behaviour. What if he gets physical next time? He manages to persuade an 18 year old to go to his house, and doesn't want her to leave? etc etc Because he is very crafty, and clearly pretty confident: even a written complaint and several informal ones have not discouraged him. I don't think people like this stop, they have to BE stopped.

And if you don't like the school's reaction, consider just going to Social Services or the police.

Spoke to a helpful man at CCPAS this afternoon, who said that as a written complaint has been received, even though the allegations weren't proved, this vicar's work at the school will be closely monitored for between 2-5 years. If any further complaints are received, he'll either be moved to another role or have his employment terminated.

He also stressed that I should write to the Bishop and contact the school to check that they have been told that complaints additional to the written one have been made, and encourage any other women in the parish who have experienced his behaviour to do the same. As long as there is a name and address on the letter, I don't have to go through the CDM, in his opinion.

He pointed out that a small percentage of candidates for ministry have personal problems, and because the selection process is not perfect, not all of them are weeded out. It's important to remain vigilant and question any behaviour that does not seem right, and speak up if you have concerns.

I'm in the process of drafting a letter, and will phone the school CPO on Monday to arrange to send a copy of it to them.

Thanks for all the advice.

Sounds a bit more hopeful, but thank you for writing the letter. Am also a church CPO, and have been alarmed at how difficult it is to get the level of evidence required to get action taken.

Well done, merry it sounds like you have approached this in a calm and considered way.

Let's say the best case scenario is that the man is a bit cack-handed and guache - well, retraining won't do him any harm. Worst case scenario is that things could escalate and some sort of physical event could happen.

Either way, inform, inform, inform. Not anonymously but calmly and professionally (as you have done) - then you have made your point that you, as a reasonable and strong adult, have been made uncomfortable by this man, so you might have prevented a younger or more vulnerable women from feeling VERY VERY uncomfortable or worse.

Well done. Right thing done.

merry I know I questioned you but I did accept your answer. So please take this in the spirit it's intended. Be very careful asking around if anybody else has had problems - you could be accused of leading a witch hunt.

Given the reaction of the parish CPO, I'd wondered about that lisaro - I think it's one of several reasons why women who attend this church have been careful about what they say and to who. I understand the risk of being one of the first to raise this issue, but when other people realise that another person has raised an issue in common, they usually voice their concerns.

However, with two written complaints, I think it will be down to the Bishop's office to act responsibly with regard to the information received about Revd X. Thanks - can understand why you questioned, it's hard to put across the craftiness of this man in print!

Phoned the school today and spoke to the CPO - she had been informed that only one written complaint had been received about Revd X, from a woman who was said to have personal problems. She's noted down the details and said that she will have to speak with the staff at the church, and has asked me to copy her in to the letter I'll be sending to the bishop tomorrow.

XMIL does voluntary work with one of the church wardens, and went for tea with her at the weekend to grill her ask some pertinent questions. The church warden noticed that he was 'liaising' with several women for his coursework, but strangely had not mentioned them in his reports. The head vicar was also concerned but felt that he would be easier to monitor in a school environment than in a parish one, and Revd X wanted to be employed near his GF. Hence, he was appointed as school chaplain.

I'm not very familiar with CofE church politics, but based on her 40+ years of churchgoing XMIL tells me that it takes a lot of evidence to remove misbehaving vicars - they have to be practically caught in the act before action is taken. She said that like the Roman Catholic church, they tend to cover for them until the problem cannot be denied. They are also keen to demonstrate forgiveness and to give people chance to reform, so as it was a 'first offence' he's been given the benefit of the doubt. I pointed out that this could mean putting vulnerable people at risk - she agreed and said that she was concerned too but 'the church looks after its own'.

Yup - whereas schools CAN'T put up with any type of nonsense so all power to them...

For instance if their 'safeguarding' isn't in place, it would have a massive effect on their OFSTED rating...

As I understand it the CofE is very hot on child protection - I think their safeguarding model has been adopted by other churches - but less so on other misdemeanours. I think the reason you did not get anywhere with the church's CPO is that he has not tried it on with anyone under 18.

To follow-up previous posts; have received a polite response from the diocesan bishop, explaining that Revd X is receiving help and support to address significant issues in his personal life, and stating that although the nature of his work means he does at times see pupils on a 1-2-1 basis, robust safeguarding procedures are in place and the safety of children is at all times paramount.

Via XMIL, one of the churchwardens arranged to meet me outside of the church, and explained that he has ongoing issues with alcohol abuse, then apologised for the over-reaction of the parish CPO, who is finding it quite a stressful situation to handle. She explained that Christian churches are made up of broken people, both clergy and lay, and it is their policy to help members overcome personal difficulties. It was felt that the routine of holding down a job will act as an incentive for him to overcome his problems; he is also due to marry his GF shortly and hopes to soon become a father, and the head vicar feels that these responsibilities will also act as an incentive.

From what I can see, the church is acting as a responsible employer in this case; ACAS guidelines advise treating alcohol dependency as an illness with the aim of rehabilitation, which is what they are doing. Thank you for all the advice, the church seems to have addressed all issues. One piece of vital information explains his behaviour!

He's about to ge married, but he's 'chatting' you up and asking about your knickers ?

SMH

I am not really understanding the set up in this church. Is this the vicar or not? Who is the head vicar? What is a steward, and why is this person blagging and not intervening himself.

However, trying to picture a more familiar setting.... It is not on for clergy to get involved with parishioners. One of the parts of their training is on how to keep their distance.

There's nothing sinister about meeting in a coffee shop or pub. That would be the policy in our church - always meet in a public place. I work with youth, so not the same as adult to adult - but we always have to have any meetings in the church diary, so that everything is totally transparent and that there is safeguarding to adults/church workers as well.

I do think that this clergyman has overstepped the mark with you and it would have been grounds for having a confidential meeting with the incumbent (not a gossip with the warden or sidespersons). I don't anything you have aside suggests a child safeguarding problem (you are not a child), but I think a meeting with the vicar is still in order.

The big safeguarding headlines all come from people who had suspicions who did nothing.

Ignore that post - I was replying to the OP and the tread has clearly moved on s lot

Ginger he's chatted up several women in the parish, not just me! The churchwarden I spoke with at the weekend said that the head vicar feels that Revd X (Claire Revd X was his curate) behaved in this way because of his alcohol dependency that was one of the causes of the breakdown of his first marriage. She told me that he had expressed remorse and deserves another chance, then spoke about the benefits that Christian marriage and fatherhood (his GF also works for the CofE, they're pushing 40 and want children) would bring in helping him to successfully overcome his problems. I found this somewhat bizarre - but as she pointed out, I don't fully understand their beliefs. I only attended the church to check what XDH would be getting DD into if he pushed for her to get a place at the church school!

The head vicar (sorry, don't know his proper title) had asked the churchwarden to meet with me to reassure me that my concerns were being taken seriously. He is a busy man, and felt that due to the sensitive nature of the case, it was appropriate for me to meet with a woman rather than male clergy. Also, I don't attend the church anymore so I'm no longer a parishioner.

DD is near the end of Year 7 at a science specialist school - I looked around the church school with her, but felt that it was an 'exam factory' and the other school was more suited to her needs (as has proved to be the case).