Should this man have been employed by a school? (sorry, long)

[merryohairy]

I?m divorced with one DD, and about 18 months ago XDH announced that he wanted her to go to a CofE secondary school (he rarely goes near a church). I wasn?t too happy ? none of her friends are going there, and we aren?t religious. Wanting to find out what he?d be getting her into, I decided to attend the church that is linked to the school with XMIL (we still get on well). From the outset I was honest with them about why I was attending over coffee after the services, and said there were several questions I had about Christian faith.

One of the vicars came up to me after one of the services and said he?d heard I was new and had questions, and offered to meet to answer them. He said he?d rather meet at a coffee shop because the church was busy and we might be disturbed. At the first meeting, he came across as charming and self-deprecating; at the end of it he said he was still in training and had to submit written case studies, and asked if I?d be a subject because he was interested in my point of view.

I agreed, and several meetings followed, always outside of church. He said that he was divorced, and ?understood ordinary people?s problems?. Several invitations to go to the pub with him cropped up, and to go round to his house; as he lived alone, and I was beginning to find him creepy and weaselly, I declined. He then dropped several questions about my sex life into the conversation, along with some snide remarks about the head vicar and several members of the congregation (he?s always charming to their faces). He also said the best way to feel close to God was to have an orgasm ? it always works for him

I asked XMIL about him, and she said he had been seeing a long-term girlfriend for almost a year. At the next meeting, he announced that he was taking me to lunch as a ?surprise?, and acted really flirty, asking about the colour of my knickers and again inviting me to his house for a meal and wine (?stay as long as you like, all night if you like?). I noticed that he was watching for a reaction, as some sleazy men do when they want to shock women.

At this point I mentioned his girlfriend; at first he denied that he was seeing anyone, then admitted it but said that he couldn?t get turned on by her, followed by obscene remarks about her looks and the appearance of her genitalia. Indicating a girl of 17 or 18 at another table, he said she was more his type and started describing what he?d like to do to her. I cut him off, pointing out age difference (about 20 years) and he replied ?they?re legally adults at 16?. I told him what I thought of him and he became very angry, so I left.

I raised the issue with one of the stewards, who said that he?d tried the same with other women at the church, including an 18 year old. During one meeting, this vicar had talked about working in some kind of social care work, and said female colleagues had made allegations about his behaviour towards a female patient. He said he had been cleared, but felt he had to resign. I therefore also asked about his CRB status, but she said he was clear. She then said that another woman had submitted a written complaint, so she would ?note my concerns?.

DD secured a place at the school where her friends are going (and is now very happy there), so having seen enough of organised religion I stopped attending, and explained why to XMIL. I have just found out from XMIL that this vicar has been appointed as chaplain at the linked church school; he was interviewed but the post was not advertised externally. She said that the written complaint was dismissed because it is impossible to prove what is said in private conversations between two people, and ?it was just a bit of dirty talk, he didn?t touch anyone?. As I am beyond horrified, I asked if I could see the parish Child Protection Officer ? XMIL advised against it, saying that he is a personal friend of this vicar and always defends him.

Am I being unreasonable to think this man should not be employed by a school?

As he is in training, and he said you were being included as a "case study", I suggest you also get in touch with his college, rescind your permission and ask for return of anything that may tend to identify you, and explain exactly why.

Raising this with the Bishop and Diocese is a good first step, I would also raise it with the school, and personally I would send a copy of my letter to the person in charge of "safeguarding" for the diocese. His behaviour whilst not illegal, is totally unacceptable for someone in his position in the Church, and every Diocese I know would take it extremely seriously.

I think your concerns may be taken more seriously if you raise them with the designated CPO at the school / LEA, as well as within the church.

Take it to a higher level than the vicar and his cronies.

complain

a normal man can behave this this (as can a woman!) , but a priest has taken vows and has certain responsibilities. If this is all true its beyond hypocritical. and very inappropriate

write to the bishop

I would have thought the only problem with him working in a school would be if he was paedophile.I can't see that admitting to being attracted to a random girl (ie not a pupil) of 17 or 18, places the children at the school under any threat.
Just because he is coming onto you in a crass sleazy way doesn't mean he would do that to a pupil.That's one hell of a leap.If he had been the school caretaker would that have bothered you?

No, I don't think thats the case oopsi. After all, a doctor or dentist acting in such a manner towards even an adult patient would be likely to be struck off by their governing body if it happened more than once. I would think the same standards would be required of a vicar. Although with the church, who knows?

He seems like a big scandal in the making if its not tackeled now, I would have thought.

Yes I think hi role within the church is questionable, but I don't think he necessarily poses a risk to girls.

You need to report this man, or write a letter of complaint.

This is seriously inappropriate behaviour.

But oopsi if a teacher did this to a 17 yo, as you mention, they would be up in front of a disciplinary hearing of the GTC. Different rules apply to those in positions of trust.

The risk is that he seems to be using his position, in which he meets women as part of his job, to sleaze upon them. Which surely requires to be flagged up for future investigation.

If its happening regularly, then it would constitute likely gross misconduct in any job, never mind those involving positions of trust and/or authority.

As I have stated every Diocese I know would take this very seriously. If you want I could bring it up at my next session of Diocesian Safeguarding training.

Thanks for all of your advice.

I phoned the parish Child Protection Officer this morning (according to XMIL, a personal friend of Revd X); he listened then said that Revd X was 'an honourable and lovely man' and that he was fed up of silly women making outlandish accusations against him. I remarked that it sounded like several women were concerned, and should he not therefore take us seriously? His reply was 'Modern women have become humourless and uptight, it's just his way of bantering'.

I wanted to ask if he was the scripwriter for those 70s comedies 'Carry on Vicar' or 'Carry on Up Your Steeple', but resisting this temptation, I thanked him for his time and ended the call.

I then phoned the office of the diocesan Bishop and was put through to his PA; she listened and when I gave Revd X's name, there was a long, significant silence. She then took my name and phone number, and has promised that a woman vicar from the diocese will phone me later today. Will update after she phones.

Sounds as though the Bishop's office may be willing to take your concerns seriously. I have serious doubts about the parish CPO though- not that any children appear to have made accusations, but I fear for any child raising concerns to a supposed CPO who just dismisses any concerns raised with him; it's a worrying attitude for a CPO to take.

I do think you should raise your concerns with the school too. The Bishop's office may not have discussed this issue with the school Governors as no case has been proven, but the school will need a heads up on this.

Having had that response from the CPO it's clear that you are far from the first person who has reported this man. I'm not a complainy complainerson person but when you speak to the diosease you should mention the response you were given. Imagine if a vulnerable woman had plucked up the courage to complain and was met with that as a response? Disgraceful! They have set complaint procedures to follow like any other institution and the CPO sticking up for his mate and propogating his sexist, patronising and outdated views isn't it.

on your behalf, please don't let this go.

Oh my God!!!!! i cannot believe the response of the CPO , that is seriously worrying . Am simply gobsmacked that you have been painted as a humourless and uptight woman because you had the temerity to voice a complaint about Rev sleazebag in training .
Do let us know what the female vicar says when you speak to her .

Who is the next level up from the parish CPO? I would speak to his boss and tell them not only about Revd X but also the CPO who thinks he can do no wrong.

I hope you're keeping a written record of all your calls etc. as well.

Have just finished conversation with woman vicar speaking on behalf of the diocesan Bishop - thanks step, am keeping written records of all calls.

She's confirmed that they received a written complaint about his conduct last year from another woman in the parish, but as the remarks were made in a private conversation, it has been impossible to prove he said what she alleged was said.

I said I'd like to make a written complaint too, and she explained that it was a two stage process (thanks fairphyllis for the link to CDM process). The Bishop's office and solicitor initially examine all complaints, then decide if they should proceed to the national tribunal that deals with clergy discipline. She then advised me that as my allegations relate to private conversations, it is also unlikely that they will be proven. She's also said that I might incur legal costs, and as a single mother 'you're probably watching the pennies.'

I pointed out that his behaviour was inappropriate from a professional in a position of trust, and that he's tried to persuade an 18 year old to go back to his house after taking her for a drink. I also asked if they had taken up references from his social care post; she said that no misconduct had been proven in that case.

She then confirmed that his conduct is being monitored since he started work at the school, and that as curacy is a process of growing in wisdom, he has been given pastoral support and guidance. I asked how his wanting to know the colour of women's knickers and giving graphic descriptions of his GF's fanjo consitituted 'growing in wisdom', but she just said they're keeping a check on him.

I've said that I'm going to write to the Bishop anyway, and asked for it to be filed with the other written complaint. She asked me not to copy it to the school because it will cause 'unnecessary alarm', but I'll phone them on Monday when they re-open and see if I can speak with the school CPO (it's not the school DD attends, but as a parent I'd like to know that safeguarding is taking place). I also told her about the parish CPO - she agreed that what he said was wrong, and she will take it up with the parish on my behalf.

Personally I would go ballistic and write to everyone who hold any power at all over any of thease people - even if the guy is only a sleeze - THIS is not they way to deal with a complaint of a sexual nature - WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN and as for the CPO I would write the conversation out verbatum and pass it to the press if nothing is done.

PS write to school - necessary alarm is what they bloody need - The CPO's attitude in partuicualr alarms me to the extent I though you were a troll till I read through the whole thread.

The school need to know. Write to the headteacher and send a copy to the chair of the goveners, that way they cant ignore it. Tell the school that the vicar you spoke to on behalf bishops office asked that they not be informed.

It may be worth a call to the Churches Child Protection Advisory Service on 0845 120 4550. Whilst this does need to be processed by the diocese according to their policies, CCPAS works with the police to ensure that this sort of cover up doesn't happen.

It is important that you do write in with your concerns. As the vicar indicated it is unlikely that a single complaint will be sufficient as these are private conversations. But a pattern of complaints is a different issue and will be more persuasive.

CCPAS's experience is also that there are very very few false allegations.

Ugh...reading your OP made me cringe. No he shouldnt be employed by a school. Yuck. Are there no female teachers there he has done this to? I would send an anonymous letter about him.

Thanks ladymuck, I'll have a chat with CCPAS too.

I've been stunned by the way this vicar and the church have behaved too - he's crafty though. The first time he made an off-colour remark I pulled him up on it, and he was effusively apologetic, saying he'd make it up to me. It was only after he'd done the same thing on a couple of occasions (all the while maintaining an innocent expression) and I'd talked it through with a friend that the penny dropped as to what he was up to.

Having worked in predominantly male environments, I'm not unaware of the vile depths of male yuckiness but he caught me unawares. To expect inexperienced teenagers of 17 or 18 to handle this kind of behaviour is too much - they're still learning to question those in authority at that age. It's hard to tell how much is cover-up and how much is amateurish cack-handedness; I suspect it's a bit of both.

I will certainly be contacting both the school and the Bishop about him, in writing.