to think that doctors shouldn't go on strike over pension changes

[starwarrior]

Why shouldn't they just suck it up like the rest of us?

The reason consultants get paid more than nurses is because they are the 'senior managers' in the team. They are the ones defending beds when the bed manager phones at 3am trying to put a general patient into a high risk specialised bed, they are the ones who lie in bed at night wondering if the operation they've performed is the right one, its the consultant who decides the treatment for a patient and bears the responsibility when the patient dies, etc... I'm not saying that nurses don't work as hard but that its a different level of responsibility. BTW there are nurses who earn as much as my DH.

And for the people comparing scientists to doctors, there is no comparison. My previous role was in research and my job was so cushy in comparison. Hmmm! If I made a bad decision I might have to start an experiment again. Even now I look at the pay scale for scientists and think it is too well paid for such an easy job - this may just be because I love this job so much and can't believe that someone would pay me to do it.

BabyBarrister, once again when you've quoted figure for doctors pensions above you've obviously used someone on the old scheme for comparison. The new scheme does not give out that high a pension. I think private pensions used to have high pay outs didn't they. In fact, my MIL, used to work stacking shelves in a supermarket. She retired many year ago with a lump sum close to 50k and now gets £7-800 a month. When she was working she received shares as bonuses and still has these. That to me sounds a pretty good pension for a job at the bottom end of earners in the private sector. I also know plenty of people in the private sector who don't have pensions but do have large property portfolios for their retirment. Whilst we were paying for our education, they were buying property. Should we make them give these houses to the treasury?

I really don't understand why the striking doctors don't make their own pension arrangements. Put your 14%-24% pa or whatever it is into a private pension and retire when you like. You know it makes sense.

Snoozymum - what a horrid, horrid post. Are you a doctor, or married to one?

Everyone deserves a decent pension. I hope you give some financial help to your mil, bearing in mind the huge gulf between your or your dh's pension or earnings and her own income.

Good post snoozymum, and not sure at all why mirry2 doesn't like it.

As for the private pensions proposal by mirry2
The.Doctors. Don't.Make.Private.Arrangements.Because.They.Are In.The.NHS.
Geddit?

And advising snoozymum to top up her MIL's pension; how do you know she doesn't? Better yet, is it any of your business?

"Whilst we were paying for our education, they were buying property."

Ha ha what rot!

Doctors are massively into the whole BTL thing. They have so much spare income sloshing around and know they are sorted for LIFE when they retire that they can gamble from a risk free position.

Heres an idea. Doctors take a pay cut, a smaller pension, and still live better then 99.9% of their fellow countrymen. Meanwhile we can redistribute the cash to those in the public sector who are less well off, but none the less do a vital job to keep the country running.

I doubt there are many people in this country who would turn down the chance to be a doctor. A tiny tiny lucky minority get to actually do the job. Thats reward enough IMO. There is certainly no need to pay multiples of the average salary in pension when they retire. (early)

I would certainly agree there's a closed shop in the recruitment of doctors. Bs and the odd A was thought to be quite sufficient in my day for admission to medicine, and I doubt it's changed, just a more competitive market.

I don't know where looktoshinford gets that amazing statement about doctors being massively into BTL. Any links? Is it a crime? I think we should be told.

I am wife to a consultant. My MIL does not need financial help - she has a good income from her pension and owns her own house. I was just pointing out that other people have reasonable private pensions and nobody is complaining about those, yet we have to say that consultants on an old scheme have far too much. I see that as a very good pension for such a crappy job (and she says it herself) so by extrapolation I'm sure that other people who have retired from the private sector probably had good pensions too. But nobody will do that because we all have to say how bad things are in the private sector and how lucky people in the public sector have it.

I'm just fed up of the constant slating of anyone working in the public sector. ATM its doctors get paid too much and don't do much work therefore they don't deserve a good pension. A few months ago it was teachers get paid too much and get long holidays therefore they don't deserve a good pension. Where is all this going to end? What happened to appreciating the work that others do?

I understand why the doctors are striking to preserve their gold-plated pension schemes.

To understand resistance to change is not to approve it, however. The fact remains that their pension schemes are amazing. Absolutely amazing. Unlike anyone else's. Just imagine retiring on 3x the average wage for a full-time employee.

Unfortunately for doctors, everyone else in the country has had to have horrible adaptations to their pension schemes. We have all had to suffer radical cuts to pension schemes. So a comparison (made by one of the doctors on the thread) to someone who retired in the private sector ten years ago, is an entirely false comparison.

I wonder from some of the responses on this thread about the nature of medicine. It seems to me to be a closed world where doctors simply have no appreciation of how pension schemes in the rest of the UK have had to change. To use the words of the OP, we've all had to suck it up. First in the private sector, then in the public sector. The last of the public sector pension schemes to go is that of the NHS.

It seems to me that striking is something that doctors shouldn't do here. Even after the changes, their pension scheme will be something that the rest of the UK would be tremendously envious about. And to strike sends out the following message:

'We know we have it considerably better than you, and we know that even after the changes we will still have it considerably better than you. But you know what? We're worth so much more than you.'

That's what I don't like about the strike.

Unbefuckinglievable, So the it's still the race to the bottom. How the government must be laughing as we all hunt down the last vestiges of decent provision, instead of supporting them.

Still, it makes a change from whacking the lazy fecking teachers.

Apologies, i realise that the comparison to a private pension was NOT made by one of the doctors on the thread. Snoozymum, you really don't understand how pensions work in the private sector and you really, really don't appreciate how good the NHS pension scheme is for doctors, and how utterly unlike the rest of the country it is.

I earn slightly more than the figures quoted for medicine. I have just been on to my pension provider's website. According the Friends Life calculator, in order to retire on £70k a year and have a tax free lump sum of £300k, which is what the average doctor has currently, I would need to contribute 69% of my income as a pension contribution.

Currently I contribute 25% of my income into the pension fund. My pension pot is subject to market fluctuations and uncertainties that a defined benefit scheme such as that of the NHS is not. If I am very lucky it will yield an annuity of £25k a year.

Those of you who are against 'doctors pensions' - are you also against pensions for nurse consultants, and non-medical healthcare professionals in senior management positions?
Because they all have an NHS pension, will have similar final salary, and the non medical professionals are likely to have accrued more years of service.

"I don't know where looktoshinford gets that amazing statement about doctors being massively into BTL. Any links? Is it a crime? I think we should be told."

Sure I'll tell you.

5 doctor friends, ALL into BTL in a big way. Know lots of doctors who were also into it.

Typical doctors salaries putting them into the higher middle classes, where most BTL took place.

Interest rates on bank accounts running at 0.5%.

Doesnt take a doctor to work out where the cash went.

And no - its a crime at all, except when using it as an weak MN excuse to keep your grasping overpaid pensions. As though everyone else was into BTL and you lot weren't?

Its ok to admit you are just greedy sods. Come on - you'll feel better for it :)

"So the it's still the race to the bottom"

The oft used phrase, pushed by trade unions and the public sector. Everyone else is already at the bottom, and STILL paying for your pensions.

So come on in - if the water is good enough for us, its good enough for you.

Hopefullyrecovering, why shouldn't I quote private pensions from a scheme 10 years old when that is the figures that Babybarrister is quoting for a consultants pension. The NHS scheme was changed in 2008 which lowered it from the figures that she quoted. And yes, I know it is still high - I'm not disputing that. I'm just trying to make sure that people are making good comparisons. Consultants under the current scheme will not retire on k70 a year with a lump sum of k300!

Why dont you get a public sector job then, if you would prefer that?

I am proud to be public sector worker, and have been a member of a trade union for 40 years.

If private workers had organised; got into a trade union, they wouldn't be in the shit they're in now.

Loads of people are into BTL, so what's the beef about doctors? I'm no fan of BTL, by the way, but your logic is, well, bizarre. Especially the bit about aligning social class with BTL. BTL is the problem, not the doctors.

heres an idea

Instead of the gov using the money paid in by the public sector as an extra tax fund why don't they ring fence it for pensions and then they wilol have a definitive figure to bandy about, instead of refusing to look in to the situation.

What I object to is having to pay massive pension contributions into my own scheme, whilst still having to pay for Doctors to have a pension scheme that the rest of the country, in fact the rest of the world, can only dream about.

Boneyback

That idea is so obvious that presumably if the government did have a defensible position they would have done that long ago.

Hopefullyrecovering

It is an NHS pension scheme.

The treasury takes 2 billion a year from it as it is. The additional pension contributions from NHS workers will not be ringfenced for pensions.

"If private workers had organised; got into a trade union, they wouldn't be in the shit they're in now."

No - the companies we work for would have gone bust and all the trade moved over to china, where trade unions don't exist and haven't used the threat of strikes to push the wages and pensions of their members beyond that of the normal worker in the country.

The public sector just doesn't get it (or more likely - just doesn't care). We CANT AFFORD you at the current levels of pay and pension. Reform is coming, whether its from Labour or Tories, and whether you like it or not.

If private workers had organised; got into a trade union, they wouldn't be in the shit they're in now.

ROFLMFAO.

Yeah, I'm sure that organising my 2 co-workers against my boss would have had a massive impact.

What planet do you live on?

hive
that is exactly my point :)

your post here
"The treasury takes 2 billion a year from it as it is."

should be quoted every time someone says that the government robbed the privare schemes cos they are still robbing the public ones.

looktoshinford

maybe the public sector would be more adaptable if the government researched in to the pay and pensions as it promised to do.

Until the government gives firm figures from an unbiased enqury then they will have problems.

Or an even better idea BoneyBackJefferson.

How about we remove the taxpayer 'guarantee' from your pensions, if you are paying so much in and its being stolen as 'tax'.

Let your pension schemes survive on employee contributions, a matching 'employer' contribution, and stock market appreciation alone. Like the rest of us.

I'm looking forward with interest to seeing a 70k a year (or whatever) pension grow out of a typical doctors contributions :)