AIBU to think that SheIBU?

[TortoiseshellCat]

Sorry this is so long but it's complicated and I want honest opinions please!

DP and his ex-wife have a child together. They divorced when she was 2, and she is now 9. Everything has been extremely bitter and horrid and there remains much hostility and rudeness on the part of his ex.

I was nothing to do with the break up, I didn?t even know him at the time. I get on very well with his DD, she?s a lovely girl.

DP has always paid maintenance, and has tried to see DD as much as possible. In recent years this has been difficult as his work has taken him abroad, but he has written and skyped and phoned (contact is not encouraged from his DDs side).

When DP and his ex divorced, she moved 100 miles away from where they had lived together to be closer to her family. He understood this and went down every other weekend to see DD. Contact was always on the ex wife?s terms and he always picked DD up at the door.

DD has had issues with staying overnight anywhere other than with her mother. So for several years he travelled up and down 100 miles in either direction, every other weekend.

Then we met, and I lived further away still. His job was transferred to near where I lived and worked, and two years later we are about to get married.
We now live 280 miles, 5.5 hours drive, away from his DD. His ex is still insistent that we pick DD up from the door, she won?t even bring her half an hour away to save us an hour?s drive. We are not allowed to have her overnight ? DD has only just had her first successful overnight stay with a friend ? and DD suffers terribly with anxiety, so we do not want to make this worse for her.

But this situation cannot continue. DD is now 9, she?s not a baby anymore, surely there has to be some give and take? Or are we going to have to pick her up from their front door every time? We have to have her back by 5pm on days we do have her, so by the time we have driven there (leaving at 5am) we only see her from 10.30am-5pm, and then on Sunday from 9am to 2pm (giving us time to drive home again).

Would there be any point in us pushing for a more equitable drop off and more access? We?re not even asking for halfway ? just half an hour would be massively appreciated. He?s never had her for Christmas or a holiday or anything, any requests are just met by a flat no.

AIBU to think we?re going to have to go back to court or should we be grateful for what we have? What would the court say?

You say go back to court, what happened in court the first time? I can't help thinking that DDs anxiety has a lot to do with her mother's attitude. She's nine, you should be able to have her for the full weekend every other week, and yes the ex should be doing some of the chauffering. YANBU

Go back to court. If you have children together, the current arrangements will be completely unworkable and unfair.

What did the court say first time? I agree this is just not workable.

That's what really worries me Squeaky.

They concluded a court case last year over alimony Pseudo - I didn't mention it cos I didn't think it was relevant, but it was very bitter.

Go to court but don't hold your breath on the equitable drop off point. I've seen posts that indicate that some people do get to a fairer split of travel, but I think it's quite dependent on the judge. Just asking for the ex to do half an hour or an hour seems very reasonable though - after all, the point of contact is meant to be mainly because it's good for the child and why shouldn't the ex be expected to make some effort to facilitate this?

On the rest, you should expect there to be a gradual build up, first with overnights (ridiculous that you're 'not allowed' these when DSD is 9yrs old) then extending over time from long weekends to longer holidays.

The norm is every other weekend, half school holidays, alternating Christmases and possibly some mid-week time if practical arrangements allow (obviously not in your case). However, when you are looking to your long-term aim, I would consider whether you would find it better for all concerned to have fewer weekends and more of the school holidays? Would be a lot of travel for you/DP, and for DSD if you want her to start having time at your home too, and you will not necessarily want to spend every other weekend on the road, particularly if you have your own kids with DP.

Suggest mediation to the ex first (courts like to see that this has happened or at least been suggested) but if this isn't successful, go to court asap as these things can take a long time.

There is no arrangement about his DD from the court's point of view, in the divorce settlement it was that it was to be arrranged privately IYSWIM

But because of the distance thing it's almost like she's withholiding DD from us anyway if we can't get there!

Mediation has been refused Moon, and we've asked for a gradual build up like you suggest which wasn't even acknowledged

So we're not being unrealistic to want to do this?

Bear, do you not think that we're making an effort driving 10 or 11 hours over a weekend?

We'd love to have her more but it's just unrealistic to continue like this.

DD is a young 9, she would say she didn't want to stay over if her mum asked her but always wants to stay on more with us when she's with us.

Definitely go back to court.

If you've asked for mediation and she's refused and won't accept what is standard practice, then I don't see you have a choice.

My approach would be to write to her again setting out a programme of contact e.g. overnights for a few of the weekends in a location close to her home, increase to 3-4 days maybe a couple of times over the summer holidays and look to be building it up to a full week by Christmas. Any concessions you can throw in, like letting her have Christmas Day this year etc, help with you looking reasonable.

Tell her that if she is not willing either to agree or to attend mediation by x date, you will be issuing court proceedings immediately as sadly you feel you have no choice if DSD is to have a meaningful relationship with her father, as is her right.

Focus at all times on DSD's right to a relationship with her father and not on DP's rights to see his daughter (personally this gets my goat, why shouldn't fathers have rights too? but it goes down better with the courts).

Also, don't suggest anything like "trying" overnights. It sounds like DSD's mother would be perfectly capable of saying that she is not ready/too anxious. If approached well by everyone, there is no reason why DSD should not get used to overnights very quickly. The build up strategy is used all the time with much younger children (as a SM, I have personal experience of this) and I'd be very wary of giving DSD's mother any wiggle room to manipulate the situation to suit herself. Your DP will be perfectly capable of deciding if DSD is genuinely upset on an overnight and should tell his ex that he will decide on the best course of action in that situation, including taking her home if need be, but that it will be his decision as an equal parent.

Best advice I can give you though is to try to stay detached from any legal process you get into and view everything long term. Baby steps towards reasonable contact... Best of luck!

"Well I insist xp picks DD up from the door because if he wants to see her he can make an effort."
by your logic he should insist that you collect her from his door because if you want her back you can make the effort.

Btw, I ignored Strandedbear as I've learned that everyone brings their own perspective to this issue based on very specific circumstances. I personally think that both parents should be making what efforts they can to ensure a secure and consistent relationship with both RP and NRP. I also think that resident parents should spend time thinking about how they'd like the situation were it reversed. Am not religious but a great believer in "do unto others as you would be done by".

Imo, who does the bulk of the travel should depend on all sorts of factors like working hours, financial resources, who moved away, whether the NRP has family/friends near the DSC etc etc.

Sounds to me like you (OP) are indeed making an effort far in excess of DSD's mum and that's a balance that sounds like it needs sorting to be fairer.

Just go straight to court. If she is this used to calling the shots and being able to manipulate and get away with it, it's probably the best way to proceed. The you can keep things cool, calm, and focused on what's best for the DD... from the point of view that as her Dad, his view on what's best for her carries equal weight. That's what the ex does not see, and that's what you need to change - not only contact, but the implication that ex is the 'real' parent with control, and your DH is 'allowed' this or that. Thats why going in tail between legs with 'requests' is actually probably making things worse - you are buying into the current script that ex gets to decide. She doesn't. So being brisk, businesslike and not even entertaining the idea that she has veto is for the best.

'Everything has been extremely bitter and horrid and there remains much hostility and rudeness on the part of his ex. '

Maybe there was a great deal of hurt on the part of his ex.

If we had her overnight we would need to book her a room or book ourselves a family room, and her mother would in no way countenence this - the situation would be sabotaged before we'd even managed to get DD out of the door, she'd be saying no and making herself sick with worry (she'd be fine when we had her btw)

A lot of this is to do with her mother and not with her IMO

DP and I want to do what is right by DSD and not what is dictated by his ex, but we don't want to launch into something which causes her harm.

Moonsquirter, thank you

Heath, I'm not denying there was right and wrong done on both sides - but it was 8 years ago and for the sake of DSD we are trying to keep things pleasant.

Perhaps this is where we have gone wrong, and should have called out the big guns ages ago.

Heath, as a parent, you have to put your hurt aside and do what is best for the children. Absent abusive situations, that is clearly to have a strong relationship with each parent. To still be rude 8 years on is self-indulgent and not thinking about what is best for your child. No excuse for obstructing sensible contact with the father whatsoever - potentially damaging in fact.

OP, to be honest, I think you (DP) should have insisted on better contact a long time ago, but I know it's difficult and it's hard to know what's best until everyone is in a settled situation/location. Regardless, you are where you are and need to move forward from here.

In terms of the mother "not countenancing" an overnight in a hotel room, well, that's exactly why you need a Court Order. If possible, ensure there is discussion at the court hearing about the role of the mother in preparing DSD for the overnight and the fact that it is not up to the mother to decide whether she's ready. When parents can't agree, that becomes the Court's role.

You're right that realistically DSD's mother may well cause difficulties. All you can do is extract DSD as quickly as possible then you and DP work on making DSD feeling comfortable. If necessary, write to DSD's mother noting that any histrionic scenes on the doorstep or the like are only harmful to DSD. Point out calmly that overnights will continue and indeed contact periods will get longer so it is in everyone's interests to give DSD a positive view of the arrangements. Again, it make take time, but you'll get there.

Thank you Moon

I think your DSD is less worried about staying overnight anywhere and more worried about upsetting her mum. It is hugely unfair on her and her dad that she has been emotionally manipulated like this- that's what this sounds like- emotional blackmail poor girl probably feels she has to please everyone and just can't. No wonder she has anxiety.

Go back to court but can your DH try to talk to his daughter first about any of this? Why does she feel anxious? Does her mum get upset about her going away etc? Don't mention court or anything to her though.

Huge sympathies to your DSD- I had similar problems after my parents' very bitter split and it is hard keeping both parties happy.

TortoiseshellCat - you say it was 8 years ago. I guess if you've been really hurt, then 8 years doesn't seem so long ago? And, with respect, you weren't there.

You say - 'DD is a young 9, she would say she didn't want to stay over if her mum asked her but always wants to stay on more with us when she's with us.'

I don't think you can blame her mum for that or, equally, her mum could blame you for her wanting to stay on with you. It seems to me, from what you've said, dd likes to please everyone. She'll say no to her mum and yes to her dad and you. Just what you all want to hear.

I think the way forward lies in making both dd and her mum more comfortable with the idea of her staying away. Would dd want to stay for her first night or two just with her dad, with you not there? Would you be prepared to do that, if that was what she wanted?

Of course I would Heath - I don't have the monopoly on time with her! I actively encourage her to do things just with her dad, I think that's really important. The reality is that both of us go down as it's a long drive to do on your own to then have her all day. So we do eat together etc. They quite often go off and play football for an hour or

I want what is best for her, and for this game playing to stop. It can't be easy on the ex never having a night off or being able to go away, putting myself in her shoes. I am not trying to replace her in any way, I'm not DSDs mum, I don't want to 'take her away' - I just want DP to be able to have a good relationship with his DD and for her to know we love and care for her.

I wasn't there, no, but it must also be exhausting to maintain this level of hatred and animosity. Fine, be a shit to DP, but don't let it affect DSD.

DSD can't verbalise it Desperately, she will quite often tell me things for me to tell her daddy, she worries so much that she is disappointing us or upsetting us and we offer her lots of reassurance and love. But you can hear her mum's voice and opinions coming through loud and clear, she's saying it because she doesn't want her mum to be wrong.

I would never mention court or willingly upset her, we're trying to find a solution - we've hunted for jobs nearer and would move if we could but at the moment we can't.

from someone whose father left when i was 2yo and never came back, i applaud you and your DP for all of the efforts you are going to to spend just a few hours with DSD.

go to court, you both obviously love her (sounds an obvious statement but my father didnt love me) so yes i would fight for her

good luck

Having a gentle chat with DSD to ask if there are any aspects of staying over that worry her and trying to address those sounds like a good idea. As Heath says, you'd need to be very careful to ensure you are getting her real feelings and not just a desire to please. However, I would have thought that this might best come after raising the principle again with her mum, regardless of the answer you get. I think it would be seen as inflammatory to be speaking to DSD first when the current knowledge of the mum's position is that she won't allow it anyway.

If DSD would prefer the first night to be just with her and her dad, I would definitely go with it - whatever helps. But PLEASE don't get pushed into a situation 'to make her mum more comfortable' with the idea of overnights. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether mum's comfortable with it or not - good if she is, obviously, but the focus should be on what's right for DSD.

I've read (and experienced) too many horror stories of how the mother has made the father jump through hoops eg lengthy inspections of father's house, insisting on child and father staying with grandparents or renting a separate property because she's 'not comfortable' with the child spending overnights under the same roof as father's wife - even where that wife has long been part of the child's daytime life and came on the scene long after the parents broke up etc. Really, it's not about the mum and she should not be able to dictate how things happen when the child is with her other loving and capable parent.