to think there is not much difference between private schooling and moving into catchment area of a good school?

[knowitallstrikesagain]

Lots of people I know consider themselves to be against private education. But the vast majority of them aspire to live in an area with a good high school. These area are more expensive to live in, so basically they are talking about using money to get their children a good education, they are just going about it in a different way.

AIBU to think you should not be 'morally opposed' to private education if you move into a desireable area just to be near good schools when you are well aware that other people cannot afford this location?

*VJ, are you seeker on speed?"

I'm going to be laughing at that all day now and I just know it will com back to me at every inappropriate time. You so and so!

And from the lofty moral heights of having moved to the naice area with the best state school in to boot

If you mean me, we moved to be closer to dh's work and my one child didn't get into our catchment school and another goes to an SLD/PMLD school 12 miles away from home. The one got into the catchment school which fed into another. But we are rural and we don't have the choice of paying private so we have accepted what we were offered which is perfectly fine state school.

YANBU - it is essentially the same deal, as is 'getting religion' etc.

Its a classic market failure - once enough people opt out of the catchment school for a 'better future' for their dc, then the catchment school gets a critical mass of social problems etc etc, and more and more people feel obliged to opt out because they fear their dc ending up at the bottom of the heap in a highly unequal society.

And of course there is then a direct cost to all those opting out in terms of school fees, higher house prices, longer commutes etc etc as well as the social cost of greater social fragmentation.

TBH I think its something that's very hard to address through the educational system alone - it reflects long term structural trends in our society.

I'm very grateful I live in Wales - while we do still see this effect (the Welsh medium secondary tends to be the option of choice for middle class parents - I've heard them called 'private education for free') it isn't quite so great.

sorry, far too many 'social's in that post

Yes but I don't care if it makes me hypocritical to move to a ' better catchment area' any sensible parent does if they can.

I was merely pointing out that certainly around here there are a lot of small I dependant schools who basically offer a white middle class bubble and nice uniform at the expense of the fabulous science and gym facilities of the local state schools which have all been rebuilt in the last 5 years, sooo lucky I know.

I would be pissed off if I had paid school fees only for the local comp
P to get better results.

But each to their own and if it's your choice to pay school fees then why shouldn't you.

That's what happened in my area and I have to say it was funny.

I agree OP. We are in Scotland and the catchment areas are quite strict where we live. I just switch off when I hear people commenting negatively on independent schools.

When our first child was a baby we were asked by someone at a party where we intended on sending him. We were honest and said the name of the independent school we were thinking of. They reacted with horror and completely embarrassed us (and themselves actually) in front of everyone else there.

Fast forward a few years and we were attending the open day at our chosen school. Who should we see there? Yes, you guessed it. The same idiot who had suddenly discovered they lived on the wrong side of the road to get into the well respected state primary they wanted. They were SO embarrassed to see us. DH couldn't resist getting in a dig by saying he thought they didn't approve of private education. What had happened to change their opinion?

I figure if you pay school fees, if you use a grammar school, if you move into the catchment of a good school, or if you use your religion to get into the school of your choice...you are gaining an advantage for your DC that is not available to others.

As such you are in no position to critisise the choices of others or you be a big fat hypocrite!!!!!!

"if you use a grammar school"

actually, that's a little unfair - if people live in grammar school area then they don't have much option but to put their dc through the 11+ system AFAIK.

Tutoring for the 11+ would be a very different kettle of fish though.

I quite agree OP. We have friends who live near us who preach about not using private education and how it's 'not necessary'; they paid an extra 50k on their house price to move next to a 'desirable' local primary. Their hypocrisy is astounding. If they lived next to some of our local schools they'd be figuring which relative they could hit up for school fees quick enough.

tbh, I think debates like this would be a lot more productive if everybody stopped calling other people hypocrites, or accused them of having a chip on their shoulder etc.

Thing is, most people want to do what is best for their DCs. (I do know parents who don't give a stuff what school their kids go to but let's disregard them for a moment.) And we all make that choice in the context of what exists. So you might have personal objections to grammar schools, but if you live in an area where there's still a grammar school system, you'd probably want your kid to go to the grammar school rather than not.

People who think that private schools give richer families an unfair advantage over everyone else still probably don't want to send their kids to a really shitty comp, so they compromise by moving near to a good comp. You would, after all, be a pretty odd person if you deliberately sent your child to a terrible school.

Of course Takver is absolutely right to say "once enough people opt out of the catchment school for a 'better future' for their dc, then the catchment school gets a critical mass of social problems etc etc, and more and more people feel obliged to opt out because they fear their dc ending up at the bottom of the heap in a highly unequal society."

The trouble is, you can't account for how everyone else will act. Yes, it would be brilliant if all the naice middle class people sent their kids to the local comp so that the local comp improved. But you have to make your choice as an individual, and no-one is going to want to sacrifice their child's education to the greater good. Unless people agree to act collectively (which they won't do), you're left making difficult individual choices.

So the solution to uneven quality of schooling lies with government, not with individuals.

Moshling I just don't think it's a black and white issue.

Some people send their children private even when there's a perfectly good state school. I wouldn't consider that to be 'ok' and would think they were a bit daft

Some people manipulate the system by living in one catchment area but pretending to move to another by renting a flat, redirecting their post etc to get into a good school. Or by pretending to be religious. I wouldn't consider either of those to be morally ok.

Some people genuinely move into a different catchment within the same area purely for the purpose of getting their child into a certain school. I don't think that's 'ok', but I think it's not as bad as the above.

Some people take local schools into account when deciding which town in the area they are moving to they want to live in. I obviously think that's ok, because I did it. Perhaps you and other don't, that's fine. Some may think it's immoral but I disagree that it's just as bad as any of the other options. It's not black and white.

Can I ask another question of those who think I am hypocritical? At my son's primary school, they offer French lessons after school once a week. DS1's grandparents live in France, and he was keen to have a go. Should I have denied him that opportunity because some of the children in his class may not be able to go because their parents can't afford it? It's a genuine question, what would those people do?

I have to say, everyone here who agrees with the OP and sends their kids to private school all sound rather defensive.

I've never criticised anyone for their choice of school, but when my kids are going to the state school to which they chose NOT to send their kids and they use the defence that "The private one is far better for our child" (ie nothing wrong with your school, just our expensive one is far better for our precious child) it is a bit grating.

hackmum, I think you're overly pessimistic.

"The trouble is, you can't account for how everyone else will act. Yes, it would be brilliant if all the naice middle class people sent their kids to the local comp so that the local comp improved. But you have to make your choice as an individual, and no-one is going to want to sacrifice their child's education to the greater good. Unless people agree to act collectively (which they won't do), you're left making difficult individual choices. "

I do think that people have become much, much more concerned about how good an education their dc get, simply because British society has become very much more unequal over the past 3 decades. It's a choice that we've made as a society, whether explicitly or not, and other European countries have taken quite a different path. Of course I'm sure in all countries people want their children to do well, but there isn't the same fear of being at the bottom of the heap, simply because being at 'the bottom' isn't so bad. ('bottom' in quotes because lots of the jobs that put you there in the UK, eg care work, are very important to society).

In the town we are in the average cost of a house in the correct road to get into the outstanding primary and the outstanding Senior school is £750,000 - any other road you might get in one year and not the next. The price of a similar house elsewhere in the town £450,000. Cost of 13 years of fees at local girls day school which is rate in top 50 schools in UK is currently at £150,000.
This was one of the many reasons that DD is at the private school. Oh and that along with that the head of the outstanding primary believes that mothers who work are damaging their children and makes it very, very difficult for any child care providers to deliever and collect from the school.

Well private school was far better for our child than the state school.
The same state is fine for our other child.
Different personalities, different academic abilities, different social abilities etc
So when people make snide comments about private school parents I do get defensive.
All my children have been to state school, some are still there.

I agree with word. Most decisions regarding our children are selfish. Unless you move into an area of a truly comprehensive school that also happens to get great results while educating kids from a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds, then you really can't say you are supporting the state system by helping to hike up property prices in middle class areas which then cuts out access to large groups of the population.

We were just lucky, we lived here before kids, the schools are exactly what I have described above and I have a fairly clear conscience - sorry I know that sounds smug.

However I realise that lots of parents are making decisions to go independent because they don't have access to state schools like this. My friends from London can't believe they now have the choice of not just 1 but 3 great state schools in their catchment (2 outstanding according to Ofsted) by moving into our area.

What I don't understand is the parents who live locally to me who choose independent and then try and say it is simply based on the quality of the education. Sending your child to private school seems to be about so much more than ensuring a great education. People's fears about diversity of backgrounds of the other children, imagined bad behaviour etc and the obvious advantages in terms of connections and career advancement for the privately educated, must come into it too.

I agree with OP and I struggle with it myself- we are moving currently and have looked at school catchment areas and I still don't think I could put my children in private school. We are not moving because of schools though and tbh factors such as proximity to transport are just as important but it is tricky. I do think social mix is important - and intellectual mix - when I went to school (local comp) there were children with lots of money /children without, children whose parents valued education/children whose parents didn't and children who were academically able and those who weren't. But I am not sure which schools near us would achieve this.
grammar schools are interesting too- parents in grammar school areas I know spend a lot of money at the under 11 stage (either private schools or tutoring) in order to get their child into the free grammar- so state education costs money indirectly in other ways

I still can't see how you differentiate between people moving within an area to get into a good school and people researching schools when they move to a new area to get in the right catchment.

To me its all the same thing - Some people have the luxury of Using money to obtain what they think is a better education for their children and others don't.

I think we are lucky, I was able to look at our local state schools and private ones to make our decision. We chose the private option - small class sizes, huge range of extra curricular opportunities in and out of school (fwiw local state schools are 'good' according to ofsted) Our money, our choice. I'm not embarrassed nor am I defensive.

I want my children to have an amazing experience at school, we chose the school we thought woud give them this.

Everyone wants what's best for their children, I just find it funny when people say I would never go private, then in the next breath tell me how they moved house, found religion etc

I think that moving just for schools is ethically dubious, but I do not think it is 'the same' as paying school fees. I do think most people choose where they live for a variety of reasons, schools perhaps one of them, but moving for catchment certainly goes on around here and I raise my eyebrows a tad in some cases, yes.

I certainly dispute the idea that no private-school-using parent has ever been rude to a state-school-using parent on MN though! Perhaps we are more prone to see rudeness where it is, or is perceived to be, directed at us.

I think that shunning the school where you live, either by moving away from it or paying not to go to it, is a shame. I think that timing a move to coincide with year 7 is not quite the same as that, though.

YABU. Buying a house, wherever it is, comes out of taxed income and is the buyer's business. No hypocrisy is involved.

Private education is shored up by charitable status and the schools not paying the full cost of the teachers, i.e. pensions. If they had to do this, the cost of going private would be prohibitive.

The first is free choice of how to spend earned money, the second a pretence at exercising freedom, but one where the market is propped up by government.

Sorry my last post was to flowery ...

Ooh good argument echt

Hands up. I've always admitted I'm a hypocrite.

I don't believe in either private health or private education, however you do get an unfair advantage in both so I understand why people do it.

IMO it is wrong to jump the medical queue but we have private health!

We can't afford private education but we do live in a good catchment (chosen before we had children but we probably would have moved if we needed to). I don't think we would send the DC to a private school even if we could afford it because underneath it all I think there should be equality for all. But i've no doubt we would if our local state school wasn't so good and we could afford it.

I don't agree with it at all, but while the system is so inherently unfair, I will do anything to make my family don't lose out on any advantages. Yes I'm aware that makes me one huge hypocrite.

BTW I had a couple of friends who were sent to "pretty shit" schools by their parents on principle. In one case she wasn't put in for the 11+, and went to the worse of the two primaries close to their house. In one case the two girls did manage to get to university, but might have got to their first choices with a slightly better schooling.
In both cases the parents were members of the Liberal party.

Moshling I guess it's something about moving deliberately purely to get into a 'good' catchment area when there is no other reason for moving, as opposed to relocating completely anyway and researching schools along with other amenities/factors when making a decision.

I just see them as being different things, and at different positions on a theoretical scale, although I understand that some people may consider both to be morally wrong.