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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not give a toss about Abu Qatada's human rights?

158 replies

wannaBe · 10/05/2012 09:49

So he came here on a fake passport, is a radical suspected of plotting God-knows-what, and yet we apparently shouldn't deport him back to where he came from (regardless of the fact he is here illegally) because he might be persecuted back in Jordan?

Now if this was an innocent person who meant no harm to others who had come here illegally I would be more sympathetic.

But it's not.

Live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

OP posts:
LentillyFart · 10/05/2012 12:11

tethersend Thu 10-May-12 10:28:38

You are afforded human rights by virtue of being human. That's the point.

This. Exactly this. And that is all that needs to be said. Send the fucker back and the hell with what happens to him. Like he gives a low flying fuck what might have happened to the potential victims of his militant agenda? I don't know why we've had this insane level of pussyfooting about with this idiot - the Italians and French manage to send these people back and consider answering EU questions later! That's the way to do it!

entropygirl · 10/05/2012 12:15

YABU.

Anyone who doesn't care if another human being is tortured has something wrong in the brain department imo and is from a total empathy fail at the very least.

It may be that Qatada falls into this category, but apparently he is in the excellent company of half the posters on this thread.

Have a serious look at yourselves.

HipHopOpotomus · 10/05/2012 12:17

well it's a double edged sword isn't it? Our legal system and attempts to protect the individual are flawed - but what they are trying to do is important and worth protecting for all our sakes.

HOWEVER I'd so LOVE to be at the airport to send him off in an appropriate manner when he eventually does go. Can't wait to see the back of this despicable person.

sixlostmonkeys · 10/05/2012 12:17

He is an evil Hate preacher whereas most people on here are not

AutumnSummers · 10/05/2012 12:19

Human Rights apply to everyone because the minute we say that even one human- no matter how despicable -is not worthy of these rights, we open the door to one day losing them ourselves.

tethersend · 10/05/2012 12:21

Lentilly, I think you've misunderstood me- unless you agree that any human being has human rights, due to them being, well, human?

AbsofAwesomeness · 10/05/2012 12:22

YABU - as others have said, human rights are/should be universal (they are treated as universal by the UK, unfortuantely not all governments/people agree with it). As odious as this is, he does have a right to do this. Better we know where he is than he gets shipped back to Jordan and gets "lost" and ends up doing who knows what.

LentillyFart · 10/05/2012 12:25

I may have misunderstood your particular and personal slant tether - but can this individual really be classed as human? He might look like one but I'm not convinced. And I am also not convinced that sending him back to Jordan will cause the immediate collapse of human rights legislation and our admirable committment to it.

BornSicky · 10/05/2012 12:27

to the poster who mentioned France...

I know of one case where a person was detained without trial for 12 years. 12 YEARS!

I never want that to be a possibility for anyone in this country, ever. That's not justice.

Chandon · 10/05/2012 12:28

wannabe,

human rights are for everyone.

even Abu Qatada, Breivik, you, me, everyone.

They are your rights just because you are a human being.

That is what is great about them. They are inalienable. Nobody can take them away.

If Qatada commits crimes, he will be tried here.

Human Rights are not a get-out-of-jail card

entropygirl · 10/05/2012 12:29

Picture the scene:

You walk into a small room and are immediately hit by the smell.
You see what remains of a late middle aged man tied to a table.
At the sound of your entry he has started to scream in terror and pissed himself.
He is covered in burns, cuts and bruises. His tongue has been cut out and fingers all broken.

And you think to yourself "Nice job! I would have done it myself it I had had the time, sadly I could only get off work long enough to wave him off at the airport".

LentillyFart · 10/05/2012 12:29

I mentioned France if you mean me? France and Italy have both expelled the likes of Qatada without approval of the ECHR. I fail to see anything much wrong with that.

alemci · 10/05/2012 12:29

i don't know how he manages to keep getting appeal after appeal and so much legal aid. I liked Crispy cod's idea of sending the Jordanian government an invoice for all the costs.

plus we have to keep his family and his wife doesn't appear to be put under any pressure to go out to work like loads of other people have to.

He hates the West yet he is happy to sponge off us.

BornSicky · 10/05/2012 12:37

the French legal system is a complete mess. I would not want it. That was my point.

It takes years to bring cases to trial and there are systemic problems with the detention, prosecution and management of cases involving asylum seekers, as well as with suspected terrorists.

In another example, I know of another case where a woman who sought asylum committed a low-level act of theft in order to feed herself (because she couldn't work, nor claim any living expenses) and was imprisioned for it. Not only was she imprisoned, but under the French judicial system she also had to pay damages to the company she stole from. She didn't have any money at all. So, she committed suicide, because she had no assistance, no support, no access to decent legal services and no recourse.

this is just one example, but I have a few dozen more. So, I don't think the French legal system is a beacon of excellence where human rights are concerned.

The Italian legal system is universally reknowned for its corruption, as is Italian politics in general, so I'm quite definitely proud that ours is more efficient and fair.

tethersend · 10/05/2012 13:05

" but can this individual really be classed as human?"

During the 1930s and 40s, the Nazis deemed Jews to not be human.

Of course he is a human being; to try and suggest that we can relinquish our species through our actions is absurd.

MousyMouse · 10/05/2012 13:07

yabu - because these are your human rights too.
slippery slope imo

thegreylady · 10/05/2012 13:11

I think that individuals who seem to be here for the sole purpose of disrupting/destroying our culture and society should be returned to their country of origin.

pumpkinsweetie · 10/05/2012 13:14

I agree with thegreylady

pumpkinsweetie · 10/05/2012 13:17

If brits went abroad and caused the trouble he did we would be done for treason or atleast booted out.
The Human Rights system needs a rehaul and they should re-name it Decent Lawful Peoples rights as to stop sickos and creatures like him using it -and NO he isnt human , he stopped being a human the day he committed terrible crimes against humanity

Whatmeworry · 10/05/2012 13:23

I don't think it destroys their human rights if we decide we don't want them to live here, and suggest they go someplace else.

And stop subsidising them.

exexe · 10/05/2012 13:26

I just don't get him. He couldn't stay in his own country so he came here for sanctuary. Why is he not thankful for it like so many others in his situation would be?

I believe he should be deported.

HipHopOpotomus · 10/05/2012 13:29

to say he is not human is ridiculous and to deny human nature.

Humans can be really fucked up and flawed - to deny this is to put your head in the sand. While certain humans are knitting lentils and bunting, others are raping small children and planning terrorist attacks. Yet they are all human!!!! And arguably it is all part of human nature.

Which is why we have devices like the Human Rights Act - so X person can't decide Y person isn't 'human' and treat them accordingly.

To say any person at all isn't human is disgraceful, obscene, ignorant and inflammatory. See tethersend above at 13.05 LEST WE FORGET!

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/05/2012 13:31

He is a human. He has rights. He might not agree that I have human rights but that is what makes me a decent human and him a repulsive human. He's still a human though. I agree with entropy again that people who wish torture on others either lack empathy or haven't thought it through.

MarysBeard · 10/05/2012 13:32

I don't care about his particular human rights, but I care about the way the UK is seen around the world and how we treat people, especially those who have not been charged with any offence in this country.

I understand this case has been frustrating - often doing the right thing is much more difficult than doing the wrong one. But hopefully it will set certain precedents so that the process will be easier next time.

I don't want this country to.engage in illegal wars or be party to torture or facilitate torture in other countries. If we do these things it ironically places us in more danger. Every injustice we perpetrate or are seen to support breeds a potential terrorist.

flatpackhamster · 10/05/2012 13:34

No, I don't think you're being unreasonable.

Many people are saying "He's human so he deserves human rights." But what rights does he deserve? The right to come to a country and stay illegally? The right to inflame hatred against the people in the country he's living in? Why are we even applying this law to a non-national? Because we're required to by the ECHR, in which we have somehow become enmeshed.

The ECHR has been a disaster for human rights. By attempting to codify 'rights' in this way it has totally negated them. We can't send Qatada back not because he is at risk, but because there is a risk that evidence against him at his trial may have been obtained under torture.