to be a bit grumpy with cub leaders?

[Mummyinthedark]

Well, DSs went to a cub camp this weekend. They had a lovely time despite the rain but...seemed to me to be poorly supervised on a few counts. Things that have made me grumpy are:

• neither DS cleaned teeth or washed (3 days 2 nights) the whole time and are adamant they were never asked or told to do this - or to change their clothes
• dinner finished very late each night - one night it was around 11.30 pm before they got the last cup of hot chocolate done - admittedly this is according to one of the children there, may be an exaggeration
• they got back an hour and half late. Given that they'd all had a big weekend and had to get up for school today this was not helpful.

• one boy who is a good friend of DS2 spent half a night with most of his body outside of the tent so got very wet and cold and is now unwell

Yes, I do appreciate the hard work and effort put in by the leaders and am normally quick to remind other parents how brilliant it is that they do all that they do just for fun...but, really, AIBU to think they should be a bit more organised and a bit more on top of routine and health/hygiene for the children in their care?

I didn't exactly expect them to go meekly to sleep at 8 pm but they don't seem to have been encouraged to settle down and given the sort of routine I usually associate with the scouting association.

the Guide camps I went to were regimented...rest hour after lunch STRICTLY adhered to as were washing regimes and bedtime. But the Ranger /Venture camps I went to were a completely different kettle of fish!!!! Huge amount of fun,but rules out the window!

I've been on numerous Guide camps/Brownie pack holidays as a child and then later as a leader. I have never yet been to one where children were made to brush teeth, we've always encouraged it as part of bedtime but some kids never did and we never worried about it. Our Brownies ALWAYS tell their parents about their 'midnight' feast, which they are absolutely convinced is at midnight but is never later than 10pm (not that I know as apparently the food was magicked there by the fairies and I didn't buy it at all) And if any of them ended up out of the tent at Guide camp well that's their own silly fault for not making the rest of the kids in the tent budge up a bit.

Both my sons have a ball at cub/scout camps. It may have been frustrating about the delayed return, but its possible that the leaders were more concerned about getting everything packed up and not losing any Cubs than setting off home contact procedure! This would have happened in an ideal world, but after a wet camp with lots of tired grumpy children the focus is on getting back as soon as/dry as possible!

Regimented Guide camps? I must of got that wrong at the ones I organise!!!!!!

As a Guide leader, I'm really surprised to see Guide camp referred to as "regimented". Maybe when I was a Guide, they were a bit more controlled, but that was 20 years ago. The camps I've been on as a leader haven't been particularly regimented. Or maybe it just depends on the unit, the leaders or the girls (we are a girl-led organisation - wherever possible, the girls make the decisions). Adventurous activities are encouraged, and so is taking personal responsibility.

At the last camp I was on, the girls were told when they should go and wash etc, but we didn't check they had - admittedly Guides are 10-14 years old so older than cubs, but it's their choice. Yes, they stayed up late, but we still had to go and tell them to shut up two hours after lights out when they were having a midnight feast and telling ghost stories. And we don't check on them throughout the night. They are trusted to come and find a leader (generally in another tent very near by) if there's a problem. If one of them had ended up sleeping outside the tent for whatever reason, I would have wanted to know why it didn't occur to anyone to come and ask for help (and if the girl slept through it, then I wouldn't have thought it was a problem at the time).

Getting back late is a problem, but it sometimes can't be helped. They should have called ahead to warn parents - that's one of the reasons we take contact numbers. Still, it's an irritation, rather than a major issue.

I'm really pleased to see how many people have defended the volunteers. I love being a Guide leader, but it does take a lot of commitment and work. And sometimes camping while heavily pregnant! Every time a parent or a Guide says thank you, or tells me how much they've enjoyed something, it absolutely makes my day.

Of course it's not impossible for things to go wrong at cub camps that are worth raising - safety and supervision do matter and just because people are volunteering doesn't mean they're superhuman and can't make mistakes. The OP just wasn't clear over what's typical and OK for most of us for cub camps, and what's in the 'hmm, not quite up to standard' category. I thought she asked quite nicely tbh and has been a bit harshly treated. After all if you don't ask you can't find out.

Personally, I don't care if my kids don't brush their teeth or change their clothes for three days in this sort of situation, but if I didn't know that things like that were pretty normal, then I might well worry that it was a sign of general poor supervision, which would be more of a concern because then I'd be picturing things like my child not coming back from a walk and nobody noticing, kids playing around with matches inside tents, that sort of thing.

YABU. I remember going on a guide camp and sleeping half in and half out of the tent...I was a wriggler and it just happened. We were also billeted in a tent away from our friends and with a lot of Turkish guides who spoke no English which rather upset me and made me more homesick. But you know...it's part of growing up!

On a family camping holiday when DS1 was 11 he wore the same clothes for two whole weeks and there wasn't even a scout leader in sight.

At the end of two weeks, he didn't even smell!

I actually don't know why I both packing soap when DS1 and DS2 go camping with the scouts. YABU about the DCs not washing. They should know for themselves the importance of cleaning teeth.

Guide camps aren't necessarily regimented, but they are always better organised than scout camps.

I once went on a Guide camp where our belongings floated out of the tent in front of us as it rained so hard. We were evacuated from the camp site to a local church hall at 2am, leaving everything but our sleeping bags behind. It was very exciting (especially as there was a Scout group there too, being evacuated from their camp)

Another camp I went on involved a lovely hike, but the map we were given was a strange Dutch type that we'd never seen before, and the Dutch leaders just sent us off in a small group saying we'd pick it up. A walk that should have taken 2 hours took us 5! And this was in the days before we all had mobiles to ring for help when we were lost. All good growing up experiences.

I bet they were told.
In the excitement of Cub Camp my DS and most of his friends could be told via a good firm vocal command, morse code, sempahore and smoke signals to clean thier teeth, wear clean clothes and wash and they still wouldn't get the message.

How in earth a child lays outside in the rain and wind half the night and doesn't get back in the tent, I don't know. Good practice for the teenage festival years though.

"Guide camps aren't necessarily regimented, but they are always better organised than scout camps."

schole said it so much better than I did.

"Guide camps aren't necessarily regimented, but they are always better organised than scout camps."

Not the ones I've organised

I used to be a guider and at every meeting and every trip away there would be parents turning up late to collect their kids. Every bloody week! despite being asked to get there on time

Think OP has been gracious in accepting she needs to rethink following replies.
Having read thread, I am now going to buy a TY card for Brownie leaders for taking my DD to camp at Easter, and next time will bring choccies or something when I pick her up.
Am I didn't think of this before!
My DD gained so much from the two camps she has been on, and I am very grateful to all those who give up their time to provide these experiences for children.

Your thread made me sad. My dad volunteered for 3 years as a scout leader every Friday night, working bees one Saturday a month, camp each school holiday. He gave up because he said the lack of respect and gratitude from the parents wore him down.

He said they assumed he was a free babysitter and made unrealistic demands but were all tight with their time and support. Your thread reminds me of a parent he still talks about. Shame because all of the children (now adults) have great memories.

Does no-one else remember the advert from the 80's about the boy coming home from cub camp? He has a shower then a bath whilst telling his mum what a great time he had, until she puts a plate of whatever it was they were advertising and then tells her its great to be home.

I think I remember it because my mum always used to complain about my brother coming home with a bag full of clean untouched clothes :o She only used to complain to him not to the leaders or anything!

I used to complain to my DS that he had only worn one lot of clothes and I had to wash everything because he put the wet and dirty in with the clean when packing- and that he hadn't used soap etc. I t didn't dawn on me that it was the leader's responsibility! At at least 8yrs old it was up to him.

I have just run a group camp and the time and effort it took was unbelievable. Literally hours and hours to sort through information sheets, book activities, chase up the parents that didn't send in the forms, phone calls, paperwork to the relevant people to tell you're doing a camp, chasing up invoices so you can do the paperwork after camp, finding homes for each soggy tent to be dried. Do you get the picture?

Posts like the OP's make me wonder why I bothered.

Really, it does. If I thought for one moment that I'd be criticised for not making sure each individual child cleaned their teeth when asked... Do you want us to actually go into the bathroom with them and make them do them? If they're told it's bed time and to go and clean themselves up, then that's that.

"Guide camps aren't necessarily regimented, but they are always better organised than scout camps."

Ha Ha. I really don't think you can draw any distinctions between Guides and Scouts in terms of level of organisation. I am a Guider and help as and when needed with my dss' Cubs and Beavers. It is all down to the personalities of the leaders involved.

Yes they should have let you know they were late that was bad practice but they are people and not perfect. But cleanliness it is hard enough to keep yourself clean on camp without having to nag the kids . Most leaders struggle to find the time to brush their own teeth and change their clothes as there is always someone wanting them for something.

I am very strongly considering quitting my guiding role. I will be very sad to as I really enjoy my time with the girls. But I am sick to the back teeth of the lack of courtesy from parents. I organised an event at the weekend, less than half responded to my plea to let me know one way or another if they would be coming. Of those who said yes they'd be there, 50% failed to turn up with no notice or apology .

The volunteers that run these things don't want undying gratitude (parents seem to either be gushers who we find embarrassing or totally ambivalent), we do it for the kids not the parents, we just want basic courtesy. Turning up on time, reading and responding to letters, letting us know if you know ahead that kids will be absent so we can plan accordingly, helping out from time to time, paying subs promptly... Parents are human, things slip occasionally for all of us but not to the extent that justifies treating anyone with the lack of respect and courtesy that I experience and hear about from other guiders/scout leaders.

Of course volunteer leaders are not going to bother if parents are going to expect that they are going to do more than suggest they wash and clean teeth.

DS 1 and 2 both had the fun of going to cub camp years ago. I used to send them with clothes that were ready to be chucked out afterwards, and the regulation bar of soap always returned unscathed to be put back in the bathroom cupboard :) Kind of part of the experience to come back grubby and tired I think

Should have said my post wasn't meant to be a go at the OP at all. More a general rant at the universe at large

There is nothing better as a leader than a child who says "thanks I had a great time" or the parents who say "looks like he had fun" at the end of a stressful weekend!

I totally understand the frustrations about a lack of involvement from many parents. I have the pleasure of being secretary to our scout group, because I was the only parent who turned up at the AGM.

To all the scouting and guiding leaders out there - I am so grateful for all the time you give up for my children.

I so agree with almostfifty and itsstillgood - I have been a Leader for over 30 years - would love to give up but feel that I made a promise too and until I can get new Leaders to take over it is just not fair to young people to stop.

The attitude of parents (in my experience) is very, very different now to what it used to be, parents have incredibly high expectations and a sense of 'entitlement' about these activities - years ago we used to get a lot more help and support from parents - nowadays parents seem to only contact you with a whinge or a complaint. One of my mums even 'prides herself' on being totally unorganised regarding paperwork and seems to think that I enjoy chasing up unpaid fees, forms etc. As almostfifty says, the volume of paperwork and administration is unbelievable - that has got much, much worse over the years .